Ezra Klein

Well, let's go to that more fundamental debate, which is no theory quite stepped into the void that the previous theory of trade and the benefits it would bring to America and that it would liberalize China. Nothing really stepped into the void that that left. You said that the Biden administration made some points on French shoring. That didn't quite do it.

Well, let's go to that more fundamental debate, which is no theory quite stepped into the void that the previous theory of trade and the benefits it would bring to America and that it would liberalize China. Nothing really stepped into the void that that left. You said that the Biden administration made some points on French shoring. That didn't quite do it.

Now you have Donald Trump, and their theory is very aggressive, but I don't think it's working out great. I'm a little skeptical that their theory is going to be—the theory— Do you have a contender? I'm not saying it has to be yours specifically, but is there some vision out there? Is it like, what do you think this theory needs to consist of? What are we even trying to achieve in your view?

Now you have Donald Trump, and their theory is very aggressive, but I don't think it's working out great. I'm a little skeptical that their theory is going to be—the theory— Do you have a contender? I'm not saying it has to be yours specifically, but is there some vision out there? Is it like, what do you think this theory needs to consist of? What are we even trying to achieve in your view?

I mean, wasn't what they were doing turning down the dial a little bit on open trade with China, do more friend-shoring, use industrial policy to protect strategically important sectors like the Chips and Science Act to reinvest in semiconductor manufacturing...

I mean, wasn't what they were doing turning down the dial a little bit on open trade with China, do more friend-shoring, use industrial policy to protect strategically important sectors like the Chips and Science Act to reinvest in semiconductor manufacturing...

Was it absent from the policy framework, though? I mean, like the semiconductor manufacturing is offering money to private semiconductor firms.

Was it absent from the policy framework, though? I mean, like the semiconductor manufacturing is offering money to private semiconductor firms.

I always find the business community is more sensitive than I would think it would be. Everyone's sensitive.

I always find the business community is more sensitive than I would think it would be. Everyone's sensitive.

That is fair. in human life. And I think presidents don't always realize how much they are doling out status.

That is fair. in human life. And I think presidents don't always realize how much they are doling out status.

So when you've been talking to firms, when you're thinking about the next couple of years, I guess one question I have had is whether or not we are putting too much weight on trade for your first principle there. Which is to say, I'm a believer that effective commerce is very important.

So when you've been talking to firms, when you're thinking about the next couple of years, I guess one question I have had is whether or not we are putting too much weight on trade for your first principle there. Which is to say, I'm a believer that effective commerce is very important.

But something I have heard from a lot of people following this debate is that even if what you're trying to do is reshore manufacturing... Trade is probably not your most important tool. Tariffs are certainly not your most important tool.

But something I have heard from a lot of people following this debate is that even if what you're trying to do is reshore manufacturing... Trade is probably not your most important tool. Tariffs are certainly not your most important tool.

Matt Klein and Michael Pettis, who wrote the book Trade Wars or Class Wars and have been sort of significant figures in the rethinking of trade, both have said versions of this to us and or said it publicly. So I guess a different version of this is if what you want to do is have effective commerce, some of that in trade, some of that elsewhere, where would that lead you?

Matt Klein and Michael Pettis, who wrote the book Trade Wars or Class Wars and have been sort of significant figures in the rethinking of trade, both have said versions of this to us and or said it publicly. So I guess a different version of this is if what you want to do is have effective commerce, some of that in trade, some of that elsewhere, where would that lead you?

I mean, OK, let's say they put down the tariffs. Then they should focus on what? What other barriers exist to the world of American greatness that you think, you know, in Stephen Moran's paper or elsewhere they're describing?

I mean, OK, let's say they put down the tariffs. Then they should focus on what? What other barriers exist to the world of American greatness that you think, you know, in Stephen Moran's paper or elsewhere they're describing?