Ezra Klein

And I think for reasons that make a lot of sense, in many ways, we drifted away from that. And I don't know that you build a society off of people just enjoying what they're studying. And at the same time, I worry now we have pulled people into a conveyor belt. that when they get to the other side of it, there's not going to be that much there.

And I think for reasons that make a lot of sense, in many ways, we drifted away from that. And I don't know that you build a society off of people just enjoying what they're studying. And at the same time, I worry now we have pulled people into a conveyor belt. that when they get to the other side of it, there's not going to be that much there.

And I don't even think you need to imagine AI for that. That's already happening to a lot of people. I think one reason you see a lot of anger among young people today is that the deal often doesn't come through.

And I don't even think you need to imagine AI for that. That's already happening to a lot of people. I think one reason you see a lot of anger among young people today is that the deal often doesn't come through.

You do all the extracurriculars, you get your good grades, you show up on time, and then you graduate college and the good jobs and the interesting life you were promised just aren't there anymore. And so there's something there that feels like it is getting thrown into question. If we don't know what the future is going to ask of us, how can we be instrumental in the way we train people for it?

You do all the extracurriculars, you get your good grades, you show up on time, and then you graduate college and the good jobs and the interesting life you were promised just aren't there anymore. And so there's something there that feels like it is getting thrown into question. If we don't know what the future is going to ask of us, how can we be instrumental in the way we train people for it?

You have in your book these four modes of engagement. Do you want to talk through them?

You have in your book these four modes of engagement. Do you want to talk through them?

Well, why don't you go through them? I think passenger mode is particularly interesting here. So why don't we start there?

Well, why don't you go through them? I think passenger mode is particularly interesting here. So why don't we start there?

One reason I wanted to start in passenger mode is that when I think about ways AI probably is now, but can be very harmful, it's the connection with that mode. Because in passenger mode, what you want to do, and many of us have done passenger mode at work, and many of us have done it at school. In some ways, passenger mode was what I aspired to be at school. I just wasn't able to achieve it.

One reason I wanted to start in passenger mode is that when I think about ways AI probably is now, but can be very harmful, it's the connection with that mode. Because in passenger mode, what you want to do, and many of us have done passenger mode at work, and many of us have done it at school. In some ways, passenger mode was what I aspired to be at school. I just wasn't able to achieve it.

But you're reading something you think is boring. You're reading something you don't want to be reading. But you want to get a good grade. So maybe at an earlier point, you would buy the SparkNotes. Right. But now you just have ChatGPT summarize it. And more than that, you can have ChatGPT write the essay. Kids are getting better at telling ChatGPT, no, you actually wrote too good of an essay.

But you're reading something you think is boring. You're reading something you don't want to be reading. But you want to get a good grade. So maybe at an earlier point, you would buy the SparkNotes. Right. But now you just have ChatGPT summarize it. And more than that, you can have ChatGPT write the essay. Kids are getting better at telling ChatGPT, no, you actually wrote too good of an essay.

Like, dumb it down a little bit. You've basically hired your own, like, fill-in student. Mm-hmm. who can help you coast. And that will help you get, if you're able to do it adroitly enough, decent grades. But also whatever meta skills, forget the knowledge, whatever meta skills are being taught, how to read a book, how to write an essay, you're not actually learning them.

Like, dumb it down a little bit. You've basically hired your own, like, fill-in student. Mm-hmm. who can help you coast. And that will help you get, if you're able to do it adroitly enough, decent grades. But also whatever meta skills, forget the knowledge, whatever meta skills are being taught, how to read a book, how to write an essay, you're not actually learning them.

And that's, I think, when people think educationally about AI, a bit of the fear and something that I believe everybody believes is happening now. So how do you think about that interaction?

And that's, I think, when people think educationally about AI, a bit of the fear and something that I believe everybody believes is happening now. So how do you think about that interaction?

These kids are getting good at something. I'm not sure that's what we want them getting good at, but they're getting good at something.

These kids are getting good at something. I'm not sure that's what we want them getting good at, but they're getting good at something.