Ezra Klein

And when I was going through your clips, a lot of them do have the structure of

conservative idea or conservative person stands up and James Tallarico delivers a stirring sermon about why what they're doing is unchristian or immoral.

And, you know, I think a lot of liberals clicking the heart on that are feeling self-righteous and

you know, maybe right, but maybe smug.

How do you think about your participation in this world?

What is it that you would say you figured out?

If you're giving a presentation to other Democrats who are maybe less attentionally skilled or have come from another generation, maybe they're not TikTok native in the way you might be.

What have you learned about attention?

How would you describe the fundamental equation of attention at the heart of your work?

I think you're sanding the edges off of this.

Okay, tell me, yeah.

It's also about the things that work online, right?

generate an immediate emotional reaction in the audience.

These online quick videos you're seeing on Instagram, on TikTok, on YouTube Shorts, there's not that much time for plot.

You can't sort of weave in slowly.

It is about creating an instant sensation.

And I think that there is a dimension often of conflict.

Like my implicit equation of attention is curiosity plus conflict equals attention.

People have to be curious about what you're talking about.

And there has to be the energy that only, in politics, some amount of conflict, like one side versus the other side, unleashes.