Ezra Klein

Like trans swimmers in NCAA sports. There's a set of things that I think they all believe, but they don't know what comes next. One thing that I have heard many people on the right say is, is look, it's you guys who expanded the federal government's control of all these institutions.

Like trans swimmers in NCAA sports. There's a set of things that I think they all believe, but they don't know what comes next. One thing that I have heard many people on the right say is, is look, it's you guys who expanded the federal government's control of all these institutions.

It's you guys who made it so all these universities are so dependent on federal grants, who built this gigantic nonprofit complex that was living off of USAID and NIH and so on money. an idea of leverage over all these different parts of society.

It's you guys who made it so all these universities are so dependent on federal grants, who built this gigantic nonprofit complex that was living off of USAID and NIH and so on money. an idea of leverage over all these different parts of society.

What Chris Ruffo, I think, believes himself to be doing is basically retracing what the liberals did and seeing how that is a leverage for what he now wants to do. He's just like, to him, he is like a counter-revolutionary following the revolutionaries. Is there something about that? Or I see the other side in liberalism right now where they sort of want their own Elon Musk.

What Chris Ruffo, I think, believes himself to be doing is basically retracing what the liberals did and seeing how that is a leverage for what he now wants to do. He's just like, to him, he is like a counter-revolutionary following the revolutionaries. Is there something about that? Or I see the other side in liberalism right now where they sort of want their own Elon Musk.

They want their own strong central leader, not a strong man in the way that Trump wants to be a strong man, but there's a sense of like, oh, I need somebody who can come and break my own China. What, as the opposition tries to define itself, not just reconstitute itself, are there yet lessons for it to learn?

They want their own strong central leader, not a strong man in the way that Trump wants to be a strong man, but there's a sense of like, oh, I need somebody who can come and break my own China. What, as the opposition tries to define itself, not just reconstitute itself, are there yet lessons for it to learn?

Rufo understands himself, strangely, as a moderate.

Rufo understands himself, strangely, as a moderate.

That is his self-conception.

That is his self-conception.

When you're working through the question of in which direction is this going, you said you don't love the checkmark approach. Mm-hmm. But we all need our markers along the path. What are you watching? What if it went one way would leave you somewhat more comforted that the system at a core level is holding, even as Trump is scoring victories?

When you're working through the question of in which direction is this going, you said you don't love the checkmark approach. Mm-hmm. But we all need our markers along the path. What are you watching? What if it went one way would leave you somewhat more comforted that the system at a core level is holding, even as Trump is scoring victories?

And what if it happened would make you think the system is breaking and we are on this path that when you look back at it, you'll realize we were losing things we cannot easily rebuild. Mm-hmm.

And what if it happened would make you think the system is breaking and we are on this path that when you look back at it, you'll realize we were losing things we cannot easily rebuild. Mm-hmm.

And that's a place to end then. Always our final question is what are some books you'd recommend to the audience? And Zach, why don't we begin with you?

And that's a place to end then. Always our final question is what are some books you'd recommend to the audience? And Zach, why don't we begin with you?

And also what liberal, what I love about that book, and I do love that book, is that is that I, in a way, think liberalism never looks as inspiring as when viewed through the eyes of its critics. Like, look at what they think liberalism is. Not the dry, technocratic, kind of exhausted thing it began to feel like, but what they understood it to be and its power to be is really interesting.

And also what liberal, what I love about that book, and I do love that book, is that is that I, in a way, think liberalism never looks as inspiring as when viewed through the eyes of its critics. Like, look at what they think liberalism is. Not the dry, technocratic, kind of exhausted thing it began to feel like, but what they understood it to be and its power to be is really interesting.