Ezra Klein

But one thing that I think about is the centralization versus a fracturing of power. Now, I don't disagree with you that oftentimes you'll dig into one of these things and you will find a lot of corporate power acting. ISPs in the world, broadband example. And look, you're building high-speed rail. You're building a Second Avenue subway.

But one thing that I think about is the centralization versus a fracturing of power. Now, I don't disagree with you that oftentimes you'll dig into one of these things and you will find a lot of corporate power acting. ISPs in the world, broadband example. And look, you're building high-speed rail. You're building a Second Avenue subway.

You are inconveniencing all kinds of not just big businesses, but small ones. And that matters, right? I mean, I was covering this part of High Speed Rail. They spent years in litigation with a small mini storage facility that just didn't want to be moved. It's totally reasonable that that storage facility didn't want to be moved. In Europe, they move the storage facility, right?

You are inconveniencing all kinds of not just big businesses, but small ones. And that matters, right? I mean, I was covering this part of High Speed Rail. They spent years in litigation with a small mini storage facility that just didn't want to be moved. It's totally reasonable that that storage facility didn't want to be moved. In Europe, they move the storage facility, right?

They just have different laws around that kind of thing. But one thing that I have been fascinated by and that sort of led to some of the inquiry for me Was that innovation you're talking about? Yes. How many politicians I talked to, and they would not all describe it to me as about corporate power, but they do describe it as there's a thing they want to do.

They just have different laws around that kind of thing. But one thing that I have been fascinated by and that sort of led to some of the inquiry for me Was that innovation you're talking about? Yes. How many politicians I talked to, and they would not all describe it to me as about corporate power, but they do describe it as there's a thing they want to do.

And all they can do is tell me all the reasons they can't do it. The real estate board, the planning board, the fractured zones of authority between different councils in LA and the way that the LA municipal structure actually works. I'd

And all they can do is tell me all the reasons they can't do it. The real estate board, the planning board, the fractured zones of authority between different councils in LA and the way that the LA municipal structure actually works. I'd

talk during the fight for congestion pricing in New York City, the head of the MTA, and he was so frustrated by how much time he was spending working on environmental assessment with the Biden administration at that point, right?

talk during the fight for congestion pricing in New York City, the head of the MTA, and he was so frustrated by how much time he was spending working on environmental assessment with the Biden administration at that point, right?

It's always a different story, but what you often see is we just don't give the people we've imbued with democratic authority, a mayor, a governor, honestly, even a president, as much power as you sort of think from the outside. It's to the public, Obama promised a public option. Why couldn't he deliver it? Joe Biden said, I'd get this. Why didn't I get it?

It's always a different story, but what you often see is we just don't give the people we've imbued with democratic authority, a mayor, a governor, honestly, even a president, as much power as you sort of think from the outside. It's to the public, Obama promised a public option. Why couldn't he deliver it? Joe Biden said, I'd get this. Why didn't I get it?

And does it lead you, Zephyr, towards, because I think there's a tension here that I find difficult to resolve between wanting things to be like very small-D democratic and then also recognizing that small-D democratic processes can get very captured, thinking that maybe we need more executive power, but also recognizing that then you can get a bad executive like we have nationally at the moment, then you have a different problem.

And does it lead you, Zephyr, towards, because I think there's a tension here that I find difficult to resolve between wanting things to be like very small-D democratic and then also recognizing that small-D democratic processes can get very captured, thinking that maybe we need more executive power, but also recognizing that then you can get a bad executive like we have nationally at the moment, then you have a different problem.

How do you think about the level at which power should be exercised and the ability of some central voice to say, thank you for your concerns. We're doing it this way.

How do you think about the level at which power should be exercised and the ability of some central voice to say, thank you for your concerns. We're doing it this way.

Green energy has become a culture war.

Green energy has become a culture war.

Not at the climate change level. But I wouldn't call it left-NIMBYism either.

Not at the climate change level. But I wouldn't call it left-NIMBYism either.