Ezra Klein

You give at the end of your book an account of why you're a Christian and why you're a Catholic and why you find it persuasive. And I find your account of it very moving. It's a thing that appeals to me about Christianity. And the account you give...

You give at the end of your book an account of why you're a Christian and why you're a Catholic and why you find it persuasive. And I find your account of it very moving. It's a thing that appeals to me about Christianity. And the account you give...

is about both the strangeness and the radicalism of Jesus Christ as a figure, how uncomfortable it is to read him, how challenging, how it's a religion about meekness, all of the camels a better chance of fitting through the eye of the needle than the rich men of getting into heaven, that there's always been a radicalism in that.

is about both the strangeness and the radicalism of Jesus Christ as a figure, how uncomfortable it is to read him, how challenging, how it's a religion about meekness, all of the camels a better chance of fitting through the eye of the needle than the rich men of getting into heaven, that there's always been a radicalism in that.

But there's a godliness of those who do not have power. Yes. And at the same time, then, there is this administration that I think very self-consciously tries to frame itself as Christian, but people in it are, like J.D. Vance. Many people in the administration are Christian. this love of those who do not have power.

But there's a godliness of those who do not have power. Yes. And at the same time, then, there is this administration that I think very self-consciously tries to frame itself as Christian, but people in it are, like J.D. Vance. Many people in the administration are Christian. this love of those who do not have power.

There's the kind of putting out of memes where they've made a Studio Ghibli meme out of an immigrant crying. It's something about the interplay here of a self-conscious Christianity and a self-conscious mimetic cruelty that both feels like very appalling to me, but also unchristian as I understand it.

There's the kind of putting out of memes where they've made a Studio Ghibli meme out of an immigrant crying. It's something about the interplay here of a self-conscious Christianity and a self-conscious mimetic cruelty that both feels like very appalling to me, but also unchristian as I understand it.

You can go on, right? You're moving to the powerful here. What I'm asking about is the treatment of the powerless, which even if you believe, and I don't contest this point, that many, many, many people in this country have borne undue burdens. Like I understand that is central to liberal politics too. It is the cruelty with which poor immigrants are treated.

You can go on, right? You're moving to the powerful here. What I'm asking about is the treatment of the powerless, which even if you believe, and I don't contest this point, that many, many, many people in this country have borne undue burdens. Like I understand that is central to liberal politics too. It is the cruelty with which poor immigrants are treated.

The kind of laughing about it, that it's fine if you want to say they should be unkind to Ezra Klein, like a New York Times columnist. Right. Whatever your border policy, there should be a profound compassion for Haitians who came here fleeing some of the most desperate poverty in the world to work hard at jobs to build up a life for their families.

The kind of laughing about it, that it's fine if you want to say they should be unkind to Ezra Klein, like a New York Times columnist. Right. Whatever your border policy, there should be a profound compassion for Haitians who came here fleeing some of the most desperate poverty in the world to work hard at jobs to build up a life for their families.

There's something about the weaponization of cruelty against the powerless. It is what I'm trying to get at.

There's something about the weaponization of cruelty against the powerless. It is what I'm trying to get at.

I guess to me, one of the things I'm getting at in life broadly, but in the policies specifically or in the rhetoric, in the comportment, I think a lot about J.D. Vance, who's a person in many ways I think should have had some protection from this. I think he is Christian. I think he does think a lot about virtue and ethics. And you brought up the tariffs.

I guess to me, one of the things I'm getting at in life broadly, but in the policies specifically or in the rhetoric, in the comportment, I think a lot about J.D. Vance, who's a person in many ways I think should have had some protection from this. I think he is Christian. I think he does think a lot about virtue and ethics. And you brought up the tariffs.

I don't think there's anything unchristian about the tariffs. I think they're bad economics, not bad religion. Yeah. And a lot of these policies, I actually believe that about. I think people can have very mistaken views on policy because they are just wrong about what the policies will do in the world.

I don't think there's anything unchristian about the tariffs. I think they're bad economics, not bad religion. Yeah. And a lot of these policies, I actually believe that about. I think people can have very mistaken views on policy because they are just wrong about what the policies will do in the world.

I have had mistaken views on policies because I was wrong about what the policies would do in the world or the way they would be carried out. It's more the compatibility between what I think has become a dominant tone of And I think we're in a very unstable era in terms of our – what I might call like our political manners.

I have had mistaken views on policies because I was wrong about what the policies would do in the world or the way they would be carried out. It's more the compatibility between what I think has become a dominant tone of And I think we're in a very unstable era in terms of our – what I might call like our political manners.