Ezra Klein

So then you get into this other question, which I always find a little bit unintuitive, which is that the heavy use of our dollar worldwide makes the things we buy cheaper and the things we sell literal things cheaper. More expensive. How does that work? So it's just not true. So this is just the thing that is believed. That is just not true.

So then you get into this other question, which I always find a little bit unintuitive, which is that the heavy use of our dollar worldwide makes the things we buy cheaper and the things we sell literal things cheaper. More expensive. How does that work? So it's just not true. So this is just the thing that is believed. That is just not true.

So let me even narrow this down a bit because I am where your position is more than where theirs is, and certainly where your position is on the idea that these things are complex. And one of my critiques of the Trump administration, just in general, is they want to make complex problems into simple problems.

So let me even narrow this down a bit because I am where your position is more than where theirs is, and certainly where your position is on the idea that these things are complex. And one of my critiques of the Trump administration, just in general, is they want to make complex problems into simple problems.

They want to take complex forces that we don't even really fully know how to track and turn them into one thing that you can grab in your fist and squeeze.

They want to take complex forces that we don't even really fully know how to track and turn them into one thing that you can grab in your fist and squeeze.

But the very specific claim being made repeatedly is that part of why America lost so much of its industrial base, so many of its manufacturing jobs, is that because of all these financial flows, because we had so much money coming into American assets... that our dollar became overvalued. We allowed other countries to keep their currency somewhat down like China.

But the very specific claim being made repeatedly is that part of why America lost so much of its industrial base, so many of its manufacturing jobs, is that because of all these financial flows, because we had so much money coming into American assets... that our dollar became overvalued. We allowed other countries to keep their currency somewhat down like China.

And that this led to American experts becoming non-competitive and the American consumer having an appetite for these newly cheap goods flooding into the country. And so very specifically, the argument is that dollar dominance has been something that has hollowed out our industrial capacity and manufacturing jobs. Do you buy that?

And that this led to American experts becoming non-competitive and the American consumer having an appetite for these newly cheap goods flooding into the country. And so very specifically, the argument is that dollar dominance has been something that has hollowed out our industrial capacity and manufacturing jobs. Do you buy that?

What is the argument being made for that, though? You're just saying it's ridiculous. And I'm not even saying you're wrong. But I want to hear you make the argument you're arguing against.

What is the argument being made for that, though? You're just saying it's ridiculous. And I'm not even saying you're wrong. But I want to hear you make the argument you're arguing against.

Why does Stephen Moran, the head of Donald Trump's Council of Economic Advisors, why does he think the dollar's strength over time was a contributor, a significant contributor to the hollowing out of our industrial base? He's a Harvard-educated economist.

Why does Stephen Moran, the head of Donald Trump's Council of Economic Advisors, why does he think the dollar's strength over time was a contributor, a significant contributor to the hollowing out of our industrial base? He's a Harvard-educated economist.

If the dollar had been 30 percent cheaper for the past 40 years, would that have had, in your view, any effect on manufacturing employment at all? It might have had some effect.

If the dollar had been 30 percent cheaper for the past 40 years, would that have had, in your view, any effect on manufacturing employment at all? It might have had some effect.

This is the other side of this argument I think people actually underrate. And I find that Trump people, like J.D. Vance, really shift between very, very quickly. Sometimes you'll hear J.D.

This is the other side of this argument I think people actually underrate. And I find that Trump people, like J.D. Vance, really shift between very, very quickly. Sometimes you'll hear J.D.

Vance make arguments about immigration, where he says that because we've had so much illegal immigration, we have not done as much automation and increased productivity as fast as we would have without it, which is fine. You can make that argument. I think in some ways it's even true. But then on the other side, they'll make this argument about manufacturing jobs.

Vance make arguments about immigration, where he says that because we've had so much illegal immigration, we have not done as much automation and increased productivity as fast as we would have without it, which is fine. You can make that argument. I think in some ways it's even true. But then on the other side, they'll make this argument about manufacturing jobs.