Ezra Klein

It's the Ezra Klein show. That's the Apex Ezra. Let's be honest here. Although that... Well, we'll get into this. I always joke the difference between you and me is more that you're a Catholic and I'm a Californian than that I'm a materialist and you're not.

It's the Ezra Klein show. That's the Apex Ezra. Let's be honest here. Although that... Well, we'll get into this. I always joke the difference between you and me is more that you're a Catholic and I'm a Californian than that I'm a materialist and you're not.

When you use it in this context, what do you mean?

When you use it in this context, what do you mean?

Can you tell the story that you tell in your book? I don't remember the man's name. but he's the editor of Skeptics Magazine or something like that.

Can you tell the story that you tell in your book? I don't remember the man's name. but he's the editor of Skeptics Magazine or something like that.

I want to distinguish two arguments that the book could make, and that you take one path in particular. So I am somebody who believes deeply in mystery, right? I'm that kind of agnostic where... Californian. I'm a Californian, exactly. And the sort of first half of the book or third of the book is sort of about this. It's an argument that you... I would call it an argument that you should believe.

I want to distinguish two arguments that the book could make, and that you take one path in particular. So I am somebody who believes deeply in mystery, right? I'm that kind of agnostic where... Californian. I'm a Californian, exactly. And the sort of first half of the book or third of the book is sort of about this. It's an argument that you... I would call it an argument that you should believe.

That a kind of new atheist materialism is incompatible with any kind of reasonable understanding of the world and its complexity and its unruliness in the experiences people have. In the things that it now increasingly requires you to believe, like either human consciousness is somehow having some profound effect on quantum mechanics.

That a kind of new atheist materialism is incompatible with any kind of reasonable understanding of the world and its complexity and its unruliness in the experiences people have. In the things that it now increasingly requires you to believe, like either human consciousness is somehow having some profound effect on quantum mechanics.

physics, or if you're going to take a much more straightforward view of the math, we're splitting into uncountable new realities at all times. The implications are getting weirder and weirder.

physics, or if you're going to take a much more straightforward view of the math, we're splitting into uncountable new realities at all times. The implications are getting weirder and weirder.

So many podcasts. I love all that stuff. But so there's an argument for belief, and then there's an argument for channeling that belief. And I understand the book to really be about the second argument. I actually think the first argument is pretty straightforward, but it's about channeling this belief into organized religion.

So many podcasts. I love all that stuff. But so there's an argument for belief, and then there's an argument for channeling that belief. And I understand the book to really be about the second argument. I actually think the first argument is pretty straightforward, but it's about channeling this belief into organized religion.

So given the strangeness of everything you just described, and then also given that the big organized religions disagree on many things, a point you make on the book. A few, yep. Why go there? Why is it not enough to just say, you should believe that this world is not something we understand how to explain, and you should be open to all these things that violate religion?

So given the strangeness of everything you just described, and then also given that the big organized religions disagree on many things, a point you make on the book. A few, yep. Why go there? Why is it not enough to just say, you should believe that this world is not something we understand how to explain, and you should be open to all these things that violate religion?

a materialist intuition about it? What's the argument for going into organized religion as the answer for such profound unruliness?

a materialist intuition about it? What's the argument for going into organized religion as the answer for such profound unruliness?

So, I want to be careful because when I say I'm in California and I'm being jokey about it, there are, of course, many Orthodox Jews in California and committed Catholic Christians in California and so on. Absolutely. But I am very... familiar with a kind of California seeker mentality. And I think the answer from that perspective to what you just said is yes, there are patterns.

So, I want to be careful because when I say I'm in California and I'm being jokey about it, there are, of course, many Orthodox Jews in California and committed Catholic Christians in California and so on. Absolutely. But I am very... familiar with a kind of California seeker mentality. And I think the answer from that perspective to what you just said is yes, there are patterns.