Ezra Klein

This is a way in which the sort of gambit I had at the beginning about Trump was connected to the meat of this conversation, where I found the argument that you should assume that a religion's success over time is going to correlate to some kind of fundamental truth value. I felt you could take that both ways.

This is a way in which the sort of gambit I had at the beginning about Trump was connected to the meat of this conversation, where I found the argument that you should assume that a religion's success over time is going to correlate to some kind of fundamental truth value. I felt you could take that both ways.

I felt you could also take it the other way, which is to say that the religions that survive are going to be the ones that are institutionally compatible with many different regimes and often contort themselves into those regimes. And we talked about the Spanish conquest and the Inquisition. I've been reading about the Renaissance recently, Ada Palmer's great book on inventing the Renaissance.

I felt you could also take it the other way, which is to say that the religions that survive are going to be the ones that are institutionally compatible with many different regimes and often contort themselves into those regimes. And we talked about the Spanish conquest and the Inquisition. I've been reading about the Renaissance recently, Ada Palmer's great book on inventing the Renaissance.

And I wouldn't say the popes of that era cover themselves in glory. I think you could say it's about forms of Judaism, about forms of Buddhism, which Buddhism is a much more complicated institutional story than people who have been raised in America on like West Coast spirit rock Buddhism, I think, tend to believe. There are all these questions where I think that I believe Buddhism.

And I wouldn't say the popes of that era cover themselves in glory. I think you could say it's about forms of Judaism, about forms of Buddhism, which Buddhism is a much more complicated institutional story than people who have been raised in America on like West Coast spirit rock Buddhism, I think, tend to believe. There are all these questions where I think that I believe Buddhism.

That whatever sort of ultimate truth is out there is going to be extremely inconvenient and strange. And as you said earlier, and something I thought was quite stirring, the sense that every moment might be a moral test. That a religion that took that truly seriously would end up being very incompatible with ruling regimes and would have a lot of trouble from them.

That whatever sort of ultimate truth is out there is going to be extremely inconvenient and strange. And as you said earlier, and something I thought was quite stirring, the sense that every moment might be a moral test. That a religion that took that truly seriously would end up being very incompatible with ruling regimes and would have a lot of trouble from them.

Which, of course, at times these religions have. Haven't they? Yeah. But then they've often conformed to.

Which, of course, at times these religions have. Haven't they? Yeah. But then they've often conformed to.

Well, I don't think I'm saying a religion good enough to join cannot exist in the earth. I'm not trying to set God free from anything because I genuinely am not sure. It's not a pose for me. I think a couple of times in this, you think I'm making an argument when I'm actually genuinely confused. Or if not genuinely confused, genuinely uncertain. I find the uncertainty radical.

Well, I don't think I'm saying a religion good enough to join cannot exist in the earth. I'm not trying to set God free from anything because I genuinely am not sure. It's not a pose for me. I think a couple of times in this, you think I'm making an argument when I'm actually genuinely confused. Or if not genuinely confused, genuinely uncertain. I find the uncertainty radical.

And I will say within my own belief system, to the extent it counts as a belief system, which I'm not sure it should. Yeah. mystery and uncertainty is both very much at its heart and to me, very comforting. When I was younger, I just had a crippling fear of death, just really, truly terrible mortality anxiety.

And I will say within my own belief system, to the extent it counts as a belief system, which I'm not sure it should. Yeah. mystery and uncertainty is both very much at its heart and to me, very comforting. When I was younger, I just had a crippling fear of death, just really, truly terrible mortality anxiety.

And somehow what eased it for me was eventually coming to the view that I just was never going to know. And I don't know why I found that comforting. And I But I did, and to some degree it has. So when I say this, I am actually not saying that I think I have some answer here that you don't. I really don't. I'm actually testing my intuitions against yours. I want to hear your answers.

And somehow what eased it for me was eventually coming to the view that I just was never going to know. And I don't know why I found that comforting. And I But I did, and to some degree it has. So when I say this, I am actually not saying that I think I have some answer here that you don't. I really don't. I'm actually testing my intuitions against yours. I want to hear your answers.

Yeah, you and I have had this conversation once before. It can be quite terrifying.

Yeah, you and I have had this conversation once before. It can be quite terrifying.

One argument you make in the book, you sort of give the example, like the canonical example of, if you believe in a merciful God, how do you explain the child with leukemia? And you basically say that in any reasonable understanding of God, any reasonable understanding of religion, you can't, you can't possibly understand the plan.

One argument you make in the book, you sort of give the example, like the canonical example of, if you believe in a merciful God, how do you explain the child with leukemia? And you basically say that in any reasonable understanding of God, any reasonable understanding of religion, you can't, you can't possibly understand the plan.