Ezra Klein

What did they tell you in that training? How do you get ideas from corporate lobbyists?

What did they tell you in that training? How do you get ideas from corporate lobbyists?

Don't they come to you? I would have assumed they come to you with ideas.

Don't they come to you? I would have assumed they come to you with ideas.

Was their disagreement substantive or was it we were not consulted?

Was their disagreement substantive or was it we were not consulted?

There's a part of the book that is in there, but I think has gotten less attention. But we have over time, in my view, denuded the state of expertise. Members of Congress have, I think it's shocking how small the staff of a House member who represents like a highly populous district and maybe runs an important committee really is. And I'm not saying that's the only reason.

There's a part of the book that is in there, but I think has gotten less attention. But we have over time, in my view, denuded the state of expertise. Members of Congress have, I think it's shocking how small the staff of a House member who represents like a highly populous district and maybe runs an important committee really is. And I'm not saying that's the only reason.

They outsource a huge amount of their thinking and their work to corporate interests, to nonprofits. But there is this whole theory in political science called legislative subsidy, right? which is that the real power of lobbying, or one of its real sources of power, is that it is the provider of expertise.

They outsource a huge amount of their thinking and their work to corporate interests, to nonprofits. But there is this whole theory in political science called legislative subsidy, right? which is that the real power of lobbying, or one of its real sources of power, is that it is the provider of expertise.

And not only is it the provider of expertise, it is a provider of expertise from your former colleagues who you liked. They leave a congressional office because now they've got three kids, and maybe one of the kids is in private school, or all of them are, or whatever it might be. We've held down congressional salaries. We've held down congressional staff sizes.

And not only is it the provider of expertise, it is a provider of expertise from your former colleagues who you liked. They leave a congressional office because now they've got three kids, and maybe one of the kids is in private school, or all of them are, or whatever it might be. We've held down congressional salaries. We've held down congressional staff sizes.

That's all high-polling populist policy. And then people go into various forms of the private sector or the lobbying sector and sell back what they know. to their former colleagues. And in my version of abundance, where state capacity is very big, we need to fund the government itself a lot more. Like this is where I'm not a Doge person at all.

That's all high-polling populist policy. And then people go into various forms of the private sector or the lobbying sector and sell back what they know. to their former colleagues. And in my version of abundance, where state capacity is very big, we need to fund the government itself a lot more. Like this is where I'm not a Doge person at all.

I mean, I'm not a Doge person on a lot of levels, but my view is they want to destroy state capacity. Their view is that everybody would be more effective and productive in the private sector.

I mean, I'm not a Doge person on a lot of levels, but my view is they want to destroy state capacity. Their view is that everybody would be more effective and productive in the private sector.

Whereas I would like people working for Congress to be both more numerous and make a lot more money because we should have much of the very best expertise in the world helping Congress figure out its decarbonization policies and helping – in California, we should have the best rail engineers in the world helping on a major high-speed rail buildout.

Whereas I would like people working for Congress to be both more numerous and make a lot more money because we should have much of the very best expertise in the world helping Congress figure out its decarbonization policies and helping – in California, we should have the best rail engineers in the world helping on a major high-speed rail buildout.

How do you think about that outsourcing of all these functions and the absence of in-house capacity?

How do you think about that outsourcing of all these functions and the absence of in-house capacity?