Ezra Klein

I'd be curious what you've concluded about it, which is how do you snap the system into more of a different mode? I feel like Donald Trump has come in and shown you can do it through will. I mean, I'm not happy about what he's doing or why he's doing it, but the boundaries that everybody else seemed to respect have been norms, right? Where have you come to on this?

I'd be curious what you've concluded about it, which is how do you snap the system into more of a different mode? I feel like Donald Trump has come in and shown you can do it through will. I mean, I'm not happy about what he's doing or why he's doing it, but the boundaries that everybody else seemed to respect have been norms, right? Where have you come to on this?

I think that's the place to end. So always a final question, what are three books you recommend to the audience? And Zephyr, why don't we begin with you?

I think that's the place to end. So always a final question, what are three books you recommend to the audience? And Zephyr, why don't we begin with you?

Shreka Chakraborty, set for Teach Out. Thank you very much.

Shreka Chakraborty, set for Teach Out. Thank you very much.

Thanks. This episode of the Ezra Klein Show is produced by Roland Hu and Jack McCordick. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris with Kate Sinclair and Mary Marge Locker. Our senior engineer is Jeff Gelb with additional mixing by Amin Sahota and Isaac Jones. Our executive producer is Claire Gordon.

Thanks. This episode of the Ezra Klein Show is produced by Roland Hu and Jack McCordick. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris with Kate Sinclair and Mary Marge Locker. Our senior engineer is Jeff Gelb with additional mixing by Amin Sahota and Isaac Jones. Our executive producer is Claire Gordon.

The show's production team also includes Marie Cassione, Annie Galvin, Elias Isquith, Marina King, Jan Kobel, and Kristen Lin. We have original music by Pat McCusker, audience strategy by Christina Samieluski, and Shannon Busta. The director of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie Rose Strasser.

The show's production team also includes Marie Cassione, Annie Galvin, Elias Isquith, Marina King, Jan Kobel, and Kristen Lin. We have original music by Pat McCusker, audience strategy by Christina Samieluski, and Shannon Busta. The director of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie Rose Strasser.

I always enjoy conversations that I have no earthly idea how to describe. And today's is very much in that vein. My guest is my colleague, Ross Douthat. He's the author of Believe Why Everyone Should Be Religious, a book I enjoyed very much, even though quite a bit of it I had some questions about.

I always enjoy conversations that I have no earthly idea how to describe. And today's is very much in that vein. My guest is my colleague, Ross Douthat. He's the author of Believe Why Everyone Should Be Religious, a book I enjoyed very much, even though quite a bit of it I had some questions about.

And he's the host of the new and really excellent New York Times Opinion podcast, Interesting Times, where he has been interviewing people on the modern American right. This is a conversation about mysticism and the role it is playing in the Trump administration and this era in politics.

And he's the host of the new and really excellent New York Times Opinion podcast, Interesting Times, where he has been interviewing people on the modern American right. This is a conversation about mysticism and the role it is playing in the Trump administration and this era in politics.

And belief and the role it plays in society, in our lives, Ross's argument for why I should be more religious and you should be too. And it also gets into some things I did not expect to be talking about today on the show. Just a note before we get into the conversation here. This was recorded on Monday, April 14th. That was the day of the Trump-Bukele meeting.

And belief and the role it plays in society, in our lives, Ross's argument for why I should be more religious and you should be too. And it also gets into some things I did not expect to be talking about today on the show. Just a note before we get into the conversation here. This was recorded on Monday, April 14th. That was the day of the Trump-Bukele meeting.

So that's not going to be discussed in here. And also before the death of Pope Francis. So we also were not able to talk about that here. The conversation, as you'll hear, I think stands on its own. But because those things might have fit into places I wanted to mention, why you won't hear them. Ross Douthat, welcome to the show. Ezra Klein, it is a pleasure to be here.

So that's not going to be discussed in here. And also before the death of Pope Francis. So we also were not able to talk about that here. The conversation, as you'll hear, I think stands on its own. But because those things might have fit into places I wanted to mention, why you won't hear them. Ross Douthat, welcome to the show. Ezra Klein, it is a pleasure to be here.

So last year, after the first assassination attempt on Donald Trump, you wrote about Trump as a man of destiny, that he was, quote, a figure touched by the gods of fortune in a way that transcends the normal rules of politics. How are you thinking about that now?

So last year, after the first assassination attempt on Donald Trump, you wrote about Trump as a man of destiny, that he was, quote, a figure touched by the gods of fortune in a way that transcends the normal rules of politics. How are you thinking about that now?