Ezra Klein

The fact that we could do this, get this close, shows that you deserve what we are about to do to you. Yes. And I'm not saying we are actually being governed by the League of Shadows, but when you brought up the decadence, there is a dimension of that to me when you think about this in those almost like narrative terms, a sort of reflection of very dark sides of our own lives.

The fact that we could do this, get this close, shows that you deserve what we are about to do to you. Yes. And I'm not saying we are actually being governed by the League of Shadows, but when you brought up the decadence, there is a dimension of that to me when you think about this in those almost like narrative terms, a sort of reflection of very dark sides of our own lives.

Well, clearly that didn't. That didn't work. Right. It didn't work. We tried that and definitely trying to elect him twice to fix our problems was not the winning move. I was listening a couple months ago to Barry Weiss's podcast and she had Louise Perry, who's a sort of British conservative gender and sexuality writer.

Well, clearly that didn't. That didn't work. Right. It didn't work. We tried that and definitely trying to elect him twice to fix our problems was not the winning move. I was listening a couple months ago to Barry Weiss's podcast and she had Louise Perry, who's a sort of British conservative gender and sexuality writer.

And Perry made this argument that I've been thinking about where she said that the difference between Jordan Peterson and Andrew Tate is that Peterson is a Christian and Tate is a pagan. Right. And I think this might be unfair to historic pagans, but the argument she was making depends on the pagans, but also depends on the Christians.

And Perry made this argument that I've been thinking about where she said that the difference between Jordan Peterson and Andrew Tate is that Peterson is a Christian and Tate is a pagan. Right. And I think this might be unfair to historic pagans, but the argument she was making depends on the pagans, but also depends on the Christians.

But the argument she was making is that Peterson is, at least in his ethics, somebody who thinks a lot about the weak, who cherishes women. Kate is more interested in power, in dominance, in sort of driving his enemies before him and sort of fathering a lot of children for a lot of people, potentially. Yeah.

But the argument she was making is that Peterson is, at least in his ethics, somebody who thinks a lot about the weak, who cherishes women. Kate is more interested in power, in dominance, in sort of driving his enemies before him and sort of fathering a lot of children for a lot of people, potentially. Yeah.

And I've thought about that question, that sort of war between, again, sort of crude paganism and Christianity as really playing out right now on the right and in the Trump administration. There are ways in which those strands seem braided through everything, the sort of drive for power, for sort of renewed 19th century masculinity. versus the sort of more Christian dimensions of it.

And I've thought about that question, that sort of war between, again, sort of crude paganism and Christianity as really playing out right now on the right and in the Trump administration. There are ways in which those strands seem braided through everything, the sort of drive for power, for sort of renewed 19th century masculinity. versus the sort of more Christian dimensions of it.

There's in a way like Vance as a emblem of the Christian side of the administration. You know, Musk is an emblem of its pagan side with his many kids from many different women. Trump is somebody who in his both traditionalism, like as a person, and also his... brashness and will to power as a person sort of has both threads inside himself at the same time? Maybe.

There's in a way like Vance as a emblem of the Christian side of the administration. You know, Musk is an emblem of its pagan side with his many kids from many different women. Trump is somebody who in his both traditionalism, like as a person, and also his... brashness and will to power as a person sort of has both threads inside himself at the same time? Maybe.

Let me ask about the idea that what you just described, though, is pure pessimism. Putting aside the idea that climate change will kill us all, which I don't believe. I think most people, even on the left, don't believe. They believe there's a way out. You just have to really work for it.

Let me ask about the idea that what you just described, though, is pure pessimism. Putting aside the idea that climate change will kill us all, which I don't believe. I think most people, even on the left, don't believe. They believe there's a way out. You just have to really work for it.

You give at the end of your book an account of why you're a Christian and why you're a Catholic and why you find it persuasive. And I find your account of it very moving. It's a thing that appeals to me about Christianity. And the account you give...

You give at the end of your book an account of why you're a Christian and why you're a Catholic and why you find it persuasive. And I find your account of it very moving. It's a thing that appeals to me about Christianity. And the account you give...

is about both the strangeness and the radicalism of Jesus Christ as a figure, how uncomfortable it is to read him, how challenging, how it's a religion about meekness, all of the camels a better chance of fitting through the eye of the needle than the rich men of getting into heaven, that there's always been a radicalism in that.

is about both the strangeness and the radicalism of Jesus Christ as a figure, how uncomfortable it is to read him, how challenging, how it's a religion about meekness, all of the camels a better chance of fitting through the eye of the needle than the rich men of getting into heaven, that there's always been a radicalism in that.

But there's a godliness of those who do not have power. Yes. And at the same time, then, there is this administration that I think very self-consciously tries to frame itself as Christian, but people in it are, like J.D. Vance. Many people in the administration are Christian. this love of those who do not have power.

But there's a godliness of those who do not have power. Yes. And at the same time, then, there is this administration that I think very self-consciously tries to frame itself as Christian, but people in it are, like J.D. Vance. Many people in the administration are Christian. this love of those who do not have power.