Ezra Klein

That whatever sort of ultimate truth is out there is going to be extremely inconvenient and strange. And as you said earlier, and something I thought was quite stirring, the sense that every moment might be a moral test. That a religion that took that truly seriously would end up being very incompatible with ruling regimes and would have a lot of trouble from them.

That whatever sort of ultimate truth is out there is going to be extremely inconvenient and strange. And as you said earlier, and something I thought was quite stirring, the sense that every moment might be a moral test. That a religion that took that truly seriously would end up being very incompatible with ruling regimes and would have a lot of trouble from them.

Which, of course, at times these religions have. Haven't they? Yeah. But then they've often conformed to.

Which, of course, at times these religions have. Haven't they? Yeah. But then they've often conformed to.

Well, I don't think I'm saying a religion good enough to join cannot exist in the earth. I'm not trying to set God free from anything because I genuinely am not sure. It's not a pose for me. I think a couple of times in this, you think I'm making an argument when I'm actually genuinely confused. Or if not genuinely confused, genuinely uncertain. I find the uncertainty radical.

Well, I don't think I'm saying a religion good enough to join cannot exist in the earth. I'm not trying to set God free from anything because I genuinely am not sure. It's not a pose for me. I think a couple of times in this, you think I'm making an argument when I'm actually genuinely confused. Or if not genuinely confused, genuinely uncertain. I find the uncertainty radical.

And I will say within my own belief system, to the extent it counts as a belief system, which I'm not sure it should. Yeah. mystery and uncertainty is both very much at its heart and to me, very comforting. When I was younger, I just had a crippling fear of death, just really, truly terrible mortality anxiety.

And I will say within my own belief system, to the extent it counts as a belief system, which I'm not sure it should. Yeah. mystery and uncertainty is both very much at its heart and to me, very comforting. When I was younger, I just had a crippling fear of death, just really, truly terrible mortality anxiety.

And somehow what eased it for me was eventually coming to the view that I just was never going to know. And I don't know why I found that comforting. And I But I did, and to some degree it has. So when I say this, I am actually not saying that I think I have some answer here that you don't. I really don't. I'm actually testing my intuitions against yours. I want to hear your answers.

And somehow what eased it for me was eventually coming to the view that I just was never going to know. And I don't know why I found that comforting. And I But I did, and to some degree it has. So when I say this, I am actually not saying that I think I have some answer here that you don't. I really don't. I'm actually testing my intuitions against yours. I want to hear your answers.

Yeah, you and I have had this conversation once before. It can be quite terrifying.

Yeah, you and I have had this conversation once before. It can be quite terrifying.

One argument you make in the book, you sort of give the example, like the canonical example of, if you believe in a merciful God, how do you explain the child with leukemia? And you basically say that in any reasonable understanding of God, any reasonable understanding of religion, you can't, you can't possibly understand the plan.

One argument you make in the book, you sort of give the example, like the canonical example of, if you believe in a merciful God, how do you explain the child with leukemia? And you basically say that in any reasonable understanding of God, any reasonable understanding of religion, you can't, you can't possibly understand the plan.

You can't possibly, and we were in a way talking about this with Donald Trump, that the sort of unfolding of things will always be so far beyond the human mind, that the idea that you have like poked out a contradiction is a little bit ridiculous. I actually agree with that.

You can't possibly, and we were in a way talking about this with Donald Trump, that the sort of unfolding of things will always be so far beyond the human mind, that the idea that you have like poked out a contradiction is a little bit ridiculous. I actually agree with that.

But then I think that when it comes to the organized religions, you say a few times that you sort of just have trouble believing a providential God would allow these religions that are wrong, that are wayward, to expand and thrive in the way that they have. And I think an intuition that people like me have is that it is hard to say that some things can be

But then I think that when it comes to the organized religions, you say a few times that you sort of just have trouble believing a providential God would allow these religions that are wrong, that are wayward, to expand and thrive in the way that they have. And I think an intuition that people like me have is that it is hard to say that some things can be

resolved by, well, a God who is good would not allow X to happen. And some things have to be resolved with, you can't possibly understand why God is allowing X to happen or Y to happen. And so questioning it or being unwilling to take this on faith is unreasonable.

resolved by, well, a God who is good would not allow X to happen. And some things have to be resolved with, you can't possibly understand why God is allowing X to happen or Y to happen. And so questioning it or being unwilling to take this on faith is unreasonable.