Fareed Zakaria

So, you know, you could argue that, again, in Trump's case, so much of it is personal. He doesn't like Zelensky. But if you step back from that, I think that Trump in his heart believes that Russia has legitimate claims over Ukraine and so has a much softer line on Russia. I think he thinks that the Russians should keep the territory they've acquired.

So, you know, you could argue that, again, in Trump's case, so much of it is personal. He doesn't like Zelensky. But if you step back from that, I think that Trump in his heart believes that Russia has legitimate claims over Ukraine and so has a much softer line on Russia. I think he thinks that the Russians should keep the territory they've acquired.

He thinks Ukraine should not be a part of NATO. He thinks that maybe Ukraine should have a kind of neutrality in foreign policy. These are all essentially the Russian demands. And I think there's no way to read his mind, but my sense, fundamentally, from listening to him and watching him, is he thinks all those Russian claims are kind of broadly legitimate.

He thinks Ukraine should not be a part of NATO. He thinks that maybe Ukraine should have a kind of neutrality in foreign policy. These are all essentially the Russian demands. And I think there's no way to read his mind, but my sense, fundamentally, from listening to him and watching him, is he thinks all those Russian claims are kind of broadly legitimate.

Yeah. And if you think about the countries and the leaders he likes, it's either the country is very strong or the leader is very strong, right? It's Putin, Xi, Modi, the crown prince of Saudi Arabia, Orban, Erdogan. You know, those are the people he speaks about with respect. The more muddled, compromised, weaker leaders of coalition governments in Europe, he finds feckless.

Yeah. And if you think about the countries and the leaders he likes, it's either the country is very strong or the leader is very strong, right? It's Putin, Xi, Modi, the crown prince of Saudi Arabia, Orban, Erdogan. You know, those are the people he speaks about with respect. The more muddled, compromised, weaker leaders of coalition governments in Europe, he finds feckless.

He finds uninteresting. You know, so it's a very interesting. It's also, you know, that I think he likes these more old fashioned ideas. I've thought about this once, and I don't know if it's a reasonable point to make, but the countries he seems fascinated by and respects are countries which you could imagine having lots of Trump towers.

He finds uninteresting. You know, so it's a very interesting. It's also, you know, that I think he likes these more old fashioned ideas. I've thought about this once, and I don't know if it's a reasonable point to make, but the countries he seems fascinated by and respects are countries which you could imagine having lots of Trump towers.

The countries he doesn't like, you know, Europe, you couldn't imagine a Trump tower.

The countries he doesn't like, you know, Europe, you couldn't imagine a Trump tower.

Yeah, I think you're raising something very important. I think that part of what's going on here, this new dynamic in international relations we're watching, is that it's not all about power. It's about ideology. So if you think about what is it that Putin is reacting to in the rise and hegemony of the West after the collapse of communism.

Yeah, I think you're raising something very important. I think that part of what's going on here, this new dynamic in international relations we're watching, is that it's not all about power. It's about ideology. So if you think about what is it that Putin is reacting to in the rise and hegemony of the West after the collapse of communism.

Some of it is Western power, the expansion of NATO, for sure. But a lot of what Putin has been obsessed by has been the expansion of Western liberal ideas and ideology. So if you notice the things that he talks so much about are the rise of multiculturalism in the West, the rise of a kind of libertine ideology. gender ideology, the idea of gender fluidity, even weighed in on the J.K.

Some of it is Western power, the expansion of NATO, for sure. But a lot of what Putin has been obsessed by has been the expansion of Western liberal ideas and ideology. So if you notice the things that he talks so much about are the rise of multiculturalism in the West, the rise of a kind of libertine ideology. gender ideology, the idea of gender fluidity, even weighed in on the J.K.

Rowling controversy. These issues are central to the way that Putin thinks about Russian power, the power of his regime. And so he's viewed the rising tide and the spreading of Western liberal ideas as as much a threat as the expansion of NATO. So notice that

Rowling controversy. These issues are central to the way that Putin thinks about Russian power, the power of his regime. And so he's viewed the rising tide and the spreading of Western liberal ideas as as much a threat as the expansion of NATO. So notice that

When he really reacted with force against Georgia in 2008 and then against Ukraine in 2014, in both cases, the issue was not actually that these countries were about to join NATO. They were not. It's that they were going to join the European Union or at least wanted to have better relations with the European Union. What does the European Union represent?

When he really reacted with force against Georgia in 2008 and then against Ukraine in 2014, in both cases, the issue was not actually that these countries were about to join NATO. They were not. It's that they were going to join the European Union or at least wanted to have better relations with the European Union. What does the European Union represent?

It represents some kind of idea of a Western-style capitalist liberal democracy. And so the way he looks at it is he doesn't want to be surrounded by those kind of countries. He wants to be surrounded by countries like Belarus and Kazakhstan, quasi-authoritarian, somewhat kleptocratic regimes that he can control and manipulate.

It represents some kind of idea of a Western-style capitalist liberal democracy. And so the way he looks at it is he doesn't want to be surrounded by those kind of countries. He wants to be surrounded by countries like Belarus and Kazakhstan, quasi-authoritarian, somewhat kleptocratic regimes that he can control and manipulate.