Fareed Zakaria

And I think Xi also, if you listen to Xi Jinping, a lot of the things he's talked about is the dangers of too much westernization, too much liberalism. The Chinese have not just cracked down on the private sector, they've cracked down on what they called the effeminacy of men. He's talked about the virtues of motherhood and women going back to raising families.

And I think Xi also, if you listen to Xi Jinping, a lot of the things he's talked about is the dangers of too much westernization, too much liberalism. The Chinese have not just cracked down on the private sector, they've cracked down on what they called the effeminacy of men. He's talked about the virtues of motherhood and women going back to raising families.

So again, he views this rising tide of Western liberalism as as much a threat, I think, as Western hard power. And here the irony is Trump and Vance agree with them. And so, you know, for the first time now you have in America a party or an ideology that says, yes, that's right. And in a strange sense, and Steve Bannon would explicitly say this, our real allies should be Russia.

So again, he views this rising tide of Western liberalism as as much a threat, I think, as Western hard power. And here the irony is Trump and Vance agree with them. And so, you know, for the first time now you have in America a party or an ideology that says, yes, that's right. And in a strange sense, and Steve Bannon would explicitly say this, our real allies should be Russia.

And that becomes the new alliance system. Now that takes it further than, you know, than we are right now. But it's those inclinations.

And that becomes the new alliance system. Now that takes it further than, you know, than we are right now. But it's those inclinations.

Yeah, you know, many years ago, I wrote an article called The Rise of Illiberal Democracy in Foreign Affairs. And, you know, I was trying to describe this phenomenon of countries that were with majorities, with pluralities. We had elected leaders who then systematically... degraded the rule of law and individual rights and individual liberties. And of course, I meant it as a term of condemnation.

Yeah, you know, many years ago, I wrote an article called The Rise of Illiberal Democracy in Foreign Affairs. And, you know, I was trying to describe this phenomenon of countries that were with majorities, with pluralities. We had elected leaders who then systematically... degraded the rule of law and individual rights and individual liberties. And of course, I meant it as a term of condemnation.

Viktor Orban gave a speech a few years after he came to power. He didn't quote me, but he cited the phrase illiberal democracy and said, people have talked about illiberal democracy. That is what we want to achieve. That is our goal. We want to be an illiberal democracy because we don't believe in the tenets of Western liberalism.

Viktor Orban gave a speech a few years after he came to power. He didn't quote me, but he cited the phrase illiberal democracy and said, people have talked about illiberal democracy. That is what we want to achieve. That is our goal. We want to be an illiberal democracy because we don't believe in the tenets of Western liberalism.

And I think that that is, you know, where some impulses of the Trump administration go. Now, I do want to say there are two possibilities, and you have outlined them yourself, because when you first started the conversation, you said the Trump people tell me, look— We just want to use unused American power and get a better deal within this framework that we've built up, right?

And I think that that is, you know, where some impulses of the Trump administration go. Now, I do want to say there are two possibilities, and you have outlined them yourself, because when you first started the conversation, you said the Trump people tell me, look— We just want to use unused American power and get a better deal within this framework that we've built up, right?

We're okay with the liberal international system. We just think we got screwed. So that's one theory of where Trump is going. And I actually had a conversation with a very senior Republican this week. who was hoping, and I would say was arguing, that that's where Trump is going. Yeah, there's a lot of noise. It's very messy.

We're okay with the liberal international system. We just think we got screwed. So that's one theory of where Trump is going. And I actually had a conversation with a very senior Republican this week. who was hoping, and I would say was arguing, that that's where Trump is going. Yeah, there's a lot of noise. It's very messy.

He does things, he negotiates out in the open in ways that you never would by demeaning Zelensky. But what he's trying to do is to get a better deal. But then there's the second view, which is the one we've just been talking about, which is no, no, no. He's not trying to get a better deal. He is trying to systematically remake the international system.

He does things, he negotiates out in the open in ways that you never would by demeaning Zelensky. But what he's trying to do is to get a better deal. But then there's the second view, which is the one we've just been talking about, which is no, no, no. He's not trying to get a better deal. He is trying to systematically remake the international system.

You know, and it reminds me, there was a period in the 1870s and 80s when the three great conservative monarchs of Europe, the Russians, the Austro-Hungarians, and the Germans got together and created a three emperors league. It was called the Dreikaiserbund. And they got together because they feared the rise of liberalism in Europe after the revolutions of 1848.

You know, and it reminds me, there was a period in the 1870s and 80s when the three great conservative monarchs of Europe, the Russians, the Austro-Hungarians, and the Germans got together and created a three emperors league. It was called the Dreikaiserbund. And they got together because they feared the rise of liberalism in Europe after the revolutions of 1848.

And it was meant to be these three conservative monarchs holding back the tide of liberalism. And to a certain extent, you wonder whether... for some of the people involved here, that is the way they're thinking about it.

And it was meant to be these three conservative monarchs holding back the tide of liberalism. And to a certain extent, you wonder whether... for some of the people involved here, that is the way they're thinking about it.