Fiona Hill

Just the level of the atrocities that have been carried out.

As you said, the level of hatred.

But we found a way of doing it.

Now, a lot of it will require change on the part of Russia as well and Russians and really thinking about this.

I mean, Gorbachev before tried to do in the late 1980s with the black spots in, with glasnost, with openness and talking about Russian history, just kind of never sort of withered on the vine as time went on.

Well, my hope comes into the fact that we've done things before, that we've got ourselves out of tough times and we've overcome stuff.

And in people, because I meet amazing people.

You just talked about hundreds of people that you've met within Ukraine.

And, you know, people all think differently.

Contexts and circumstances change and people can evolve.

Some people get stuck.

Putin's got stuck.

But people can evolve.

And, you know, I do think that if we all pull together, and we've seen this in so many contexts, we can find solutions to things.

Just like we get back again to our discussion about scientists and just the kind of amazing breakthroughs of...

you know, what we did on COVID or done on, you know, kind of other diseases and things.

And look, there is some similarities.

There's a pathology around war and conflict.

Years ago in the 1990s, I worked on, you know, a lot of projects that were funded by the Carnegie Corporation of the United States under the then presidency of David Hamburg, who was a scientist.

And I actually did see a lot of parallels between the sort of like the pathology of disease and, you know, kind of the pestilence, you know, conflict kind of idea.