Gavin Newsom

And we've sort of made it gallant and bloodless because I think, you know, accepting the violence of the Civil War and the 20th century wars, we don't want to have anything take away from the big ideas in Philadelphia in 76 and then in 1787.

But in fact, if you tell the correct story, those ideas aren't diminished in any way.

They're actually made even more impressive that we were born in violence.

So I think that the divisions that we experience now are part of the narcissism.

It's always the best time or the worst time that we're living in.

So I think everybody's less aware of the way in which they might contribute to those divisions than they want to just sort of repeat the same thing over and over again.

And I'd suggest that, yeah, we're really divided, but not as bad as the revolution, not as bad as the Civil War, not as bad as the period of Reconstruction.

Right after the Civil War, which I'm working on a film on right now called Emancipation to Exodus, not during the Depression, like the second, Vietnam.

You remember Vietnam, 69 to 75, hundreds of bombings, hundreds of bombings.

And so I think the good thing about the study of history is it gives you a little bit of perspective and a little bit of insight.

Even optimism, you know, if you accept a priori that optimism is not a pejorative or a naive position, but in fact, a legitimate stake, which is, you know, we'll get through this.

I love it.

And as we get through, I want to get back to that.

More deeply, the current project and not just the ones you're working on, but the one we're here to really celebrate and at least reflect upon as we reflect on the 250th anniversary.

But I'm curious, you know, just going back to how we began casually the conversation.

It's interesting.

You talked about, I love this, no sort of a razor blade editing back in the day, etc.,

And now as you're out on podcasts and you're sort of battling traditional media, people in person and then, of course, online and so many different podcasts.

But when you were doing those first films, what was I mean, what did Ken Burns what was how did you go out there and promote these things?

Was it primarily through the platform at PBS or, you know, what was it finding your way onto Oprah as a sort of monumental moment and achievement?