George Saunders

So that I think –

The secular saint business just, I think it has to do with having decent public manners, actually, in which I was taught in Chicago.

So that part is becoming increasingly, I'm resisting that narrative because it jars with what I know about myself as an actual person.

So to say it's important to be kind does not mean I got it, you know?

I mean, every day.

We have an elderly dog at home who's very sick, you know?

And so that's just an ongoing thing of trying to,

figure out what she needs and not... And meanwhile, I've got a call in 10 minutes.

So, I mean, it's pervasive.

I'm not sure.

I mean, I'm aware of this kind of riff about kindness.

But really, I mean, in my experience, it came from one speech that I gave.

Yeah.

But then, so then that you have made this...

this claim that it would be good for us all to be more kind.

And then after that, you go on a tour and you get to dig into that bit and go, huh, okay, so what does it actually mean?

Well, it's not nice.

Niceness is not the same thing.

And you can kind of reason your way to see that kindness has something to do with awareness.

In other words, if kindness is