Gillian Sandstrom
Appearances
Hidden Brain
Relationships 2.0: The Power of Tiny Interactions + Your Questions Answered: Erica Bailey on Authenticity
What we find is that after two people talk for the first time, they each tend to think that the other person liked them less than they actually did. So we have this negative voice in our head that says, oh, why did I say that? Why did I not say that? Did they understand me? Did I embarrass myself? And we tend to listen to that negative voice and think that everything went horribly wrong.
Hidden Brain
Relationships 2.0: The Power of Tiny Interactions + Your Questions Answered: Erica Bailey on Authenticity
But our partner doesn't have that say, you know, they're probably doing the same thing. Right. So they don't even notice the thing that you think went horribly wrong because they're stuck in their own head thinking about what they did wrong. And so I read the abstract that Erica was part of where she was talking about the liking gap. And I thought, oh, I have I have data. We should talk.
Hidden Brain
Relationships 2.0: The Power of Tiny Interactions + Your Questions Answered: Erica Bailey on Authenticity
And so I reached out to her via email and we've been collaborating ever since. So it's a great example of reaching out to a stranger.
Hidden Brain
Relationships 2.0: The Power of Tiny Interactions + Your Questions Answered: Erica Bailey on Authenticity
Yes, absolutely. And I think norms and those kind of cultural messages make a huge difference to what we do. I think it's really hard, isn't it? Because it's a very nuanced message that we want to convey because we don't want to make people scared to talk to others, but we do need to be aware of our personal safety.
Hidden Brain
Relationships 2.0: The Power of Tiny Interactions + Your Questions Answered: Erica Bailey on Authenticity
And I'm not suggesting that people go down a dark alley and start talking to people, but in most situations, if you're in a public place surrounded by other people, there's so many benefits to talking to strangers.
Hidden Brain
Relationships 2.0: The Power of Tiny Interactions + Your Questions Answered: Erica Bailey on Authenticity
Yes, this was one of the first conversations that I can remember sort of deliberately starting with a stranger. And if I think about it, I've definitely had conversations before then, but this is one that was really memorable to me, I think because it felt like I'd deliberately done it rather than it just sort of happening accidentally.
Hidden Brain
Relationships 2.0: The Power of Tiny Interactions + Your Questions Answered: Erica Bailey on Authenticity
And so I was on the train in Toronto and it was sort of during the time when all these very fancy cupcake shops were coming out. And this woman on the train had this beautiful, just delicious looking decadent cupcake. And so I couldn't help but ask her about it. Basically, I just wanted to comment on how beautiful this cupcake was.
Hidden Brain
Relationships 2.0: The Power of Tiny Interactions + Your Questions Answered: Erica Bailey on Authenticity
And so we started talking and I think maybe it was her birthday or something. And she was reminiscing about other birthdays. And she told me that in the past she had gone on a trip to South Africa. And when she was there, she had ridden an ostrich. And, you know, you think about it. How did we get from cupcakes to ostriches? I don't know. And so I was really hooked.
Hidden Brain
Relationships 2.0: The Power of Tiny Interactions + Your Questions Answered: Erica Bailey on Authenticity
I just thought, this is amazing. Like, I would never have known this if I hadn't talked to a complete stranger.
Hidden Brain
Relationships 2.0: The Power of Tiny Interactions + Your Questions Answered: Erica Bailey on Authenticity
Hi, thanks for having me.
Hidden Brain
Relationships 2.0: The Power of Tiny Interactions + Your Questions Answered: Erica Bailey on Authenticity
Yeah, I've learned all sorts of things that, you know, I found interesting. Like, I remember talking to someone on a plane who was from Slovenia who told me that Slovenia is 70% forest. And I thought, OK, someday I need to go to Slovenia because that sounds awesome. Forests are a great place for an introvert, right?
Hidden Brain
Relationships 2.0: The Power of Tiny Interactions + Your Questions Answered: Erica Bailey on Authenticity
I remember talking to someone on the bus out at the university who told me that there was a region in China where the majority of people, or there was a huge number of people who have red hair like me. And I went home and Googled it right away and found that indeed it was true. I have had free vegetables from people. I got a ride from a
Hidden Brain
Relationships 2.0: The Power of Tiny Interactions + Your Questions Answered: Erica Bailey on Authenticity
a couple once that saved me from having to, you know, the train wasn't running. And so they gave me a ride so that I didn't have to take the bus instead of the train late at night. I was with my husband. I felt very safe about it. Again, not suggesting people get in a stranger's car, but I felt comfortable having talked to them for ages first. I joined a book club after talking to a stranger.
Hidden Brain
Relationships 2.0: The Power of Tiny Interactions + Your Questions Answered: Erica Bailey on Authenticity
I've talked to all sorts of different interesting kinds of people. I've talked to, you Freemasons. I talked to someone who made theatrical wigs. I've talked to children's book authors and a poet. And I don't know, I've just met all sorts of really interesting people and just had some really interesting conversations and also a lot of just sort of average conversations.
Hidden Brain
Relationships 2.0: The Power of Tiny Interactions + Your Questions Answered: Erica Bailey on Authenticity
I was definitely a shy kid, very bookish. And so I remember, you know, anytime we went to my grandma's house for Christmas and all the cousins and aunts and uncles were there, I would be off in a room somewhere with a book, just finding the quietest place in the house, just sitting there reading. And my dream when I was a kid was that I would grow up and I would live on an island.
Hidden Brain
Relationships 2.0: The Power of Tiny Interactions + Your Questions Answered: Erica Bailey on Authenticity
During the pandemic, people generally found ways to stay in touch with the people they were closest to. But with acquaintances, sometimes we don't even know how to reach them. They're just the people that we happen to cross paths with during the course of our day. So because the patterns of our day change, we just didn't see them.
Hidden Brain
Relationships 2.0: The Power of Tiny Interactions + Your Questions Answered: Erica Bailey on Authenticity
You know, I had Barry at the pet store who would remember me and recognize me and ask about my cats. You know, I wouldn't reach out to Barry at the pet store, would I? I mean, I don't even know how to do that. So I think we've kind of, you know, the pandemic sort of disproportionately affected our relationships with weak ties.
Hidden Brain
Relationships 2.0: The Power of Tiny Interactions + Your Questions Answered: Erica Bailey on Authenticity
I think that's true. And I think that that has a bigger or maybe different impact than people think. So talking to our close friends, we're probably already watching the same shows on Netflix. We already know all their opinions. we sort of have nothing new to talk about because nobody was able to go out and do new things.
Hidden Brain
Relationships 2.0: The Power of Tiny Interactions + Your Questions Answered: Erica Bailey on Authenticity
And so I think, you know, it's the weak ties that sort of get us access to new kinds of information or new stories or new adventures. And because we were cut off from them, I think we really missed out on a huge portion of the novelty that we tend to get day to day.
Hidden Brain
Relationships 2.0: The Power of Tiny Interactions + Your Questions Answered: Erica Bailey on Authenticity
When I was doing my PhD, I used to talk to people on the bus all the time. And it wasn't a common thing to do. You don't talk to people on the bus. So when I would do that, I think people's original reaction, their initial gut reaction is, do I know you? I think that's, you know, they think maybe that's why you're talking to me. Maybe I've met you before.
Hidden Brain
Relationships 2.0: The Power of Tiny Interactions + Your Questions Answered: Erica Bailey on Authenticity
I don't mean like a tropical island. I mean, an island that was just me. My own island, where I had a big library, and that was my dream.
Hidden Brain
Relationships 2.0: The Power of Tiny Interactions + Your Questions Answered: Erica Bailey on Authenticity
And then they realize, oh, I don't know you. And then they think, oh, what is happening here? What do you want? You know, what what is going on? And then I think you get to the third phase, which is just, oh, you're being friendly. Cool. And then you have a nice chat.
Hidden Brain
Relationships 2.0: The Power of Tiny Interactions + Your Questions Answered: Erica Bailey on Authenticity
So I think sometimes people, you know, it's you have to be aware that there is going to be that awkward moment because unfortunately it is just not the norm. And so people have to sort of make sense of what's going on. But I think if you can be a little bit patient, you You know, you almost always get to that stage where people can accept that you're just being friendly.
Hidden Brain
Relationships 2.0: The Power of Tiny Interactions + Your Questions Answered: Erica Bailey on Authenticity
I can think of a time not too long ago when I was on the tube in London. And the unwritten rule is that you do not talk to people on the tube. So it's just breaking all of the norms to do it. But I've had some really great chats on the tube, so I just keep doing it. But I remember once being on the tube and turning to the person sitting on my right and trying to start a conversation.
Hidden Brain
Relationships 2.0: The Power of Tiny Interactions + Your Questions Answered: Erica Bailey on Authenticity
And, you know, she was polite. She, you know, I think I started to say, you know, how are you? Have you had a busy day? And, you know, she responded, but it was very clear from her body language that she just did not want to talk. She was getting out a book and sort of getting herself set up and plugged in, whatever. And so I thought, OK, that's fine.
Hidden Brain
Relationships 2.0: The Power of Tiny Interactions + Your Questions Answered: Erica Bailey on Authenticity
You know, I don't think we should push ourselves on people. And so I literally turned my head to the person sitting on my left and I started talking to them. And we had a really nice chat. People worry too much about rejection because, first of all, I don't know why that woman didn't want to talk to me.
Hidden Brain
Relationships 2.0: The Power of Tiny Interactions + Your Questions Answered: Erica Bailey on Authenticity
But, you know, there's a hundred reasons and I could choose to believe that she didn't like me or something about me. But I could also choose to believe that, you know, like I said, maybe she's shy, maybe she's anxious, maybe she just really is reading an amazing book. And, you know, I get it.
Hidden Brain
Relationships 2.0: The Power of Tiny Interactions + Your Questions Answered: Erica Bailey on Authenticity
So, you know, I can choose to believe something that isn't so personally negative and just, you know, most people do want to talk and, you know, it didn't surprise me that the person on my left was a bit more willing.
Hidden Brain
Relationships 2.0: The Power of Tiny Interactions + Your Questions Answered: Erica Bailey on Authenticity
I think it helps to sort of pre-think, you know, what might I do if that happened? And it could be things like, well, I'll share something about myself or I'll comment on something that was in the news today or I'll ask them a question or I'll take a breath and just wait a moment and it'll be fine. But I have to make sure I don't panic. That would be a good thing to think about.
Hidden Brain
Relationships 2.0: The Power of Tiny Interactions + Your Questions Answered: Erica Bailey on Authenticity
Oh, gosh, that was the worst. And I felt like every time I did it, I would get off the phone as quickly as possible. And then my mom would say, well, did you ask this? Did you say that? And of course, I never did any of those things. And so it just felt really stressful and anxious about talking to someone on the phone.
Hidden Brain
Relationships 2.0: The Power of Tiny Interactions + Your Questions Answered: Erica Bailey on Authenticity
I saw this man with a net, and he was scooping up fish. And I thought, what in the heck is he doing? And so I went up and I asked him, I said, what are you doing? And he said he lived nearby, and he said, you know, this happens sometimes. We get a heavy rain, and the fish sort of wash downstream, and they get stuck somewhere, and then the water stops. goes down and they're in big trouble.
Hidden Brain
Relationships 2.0: The Power of Tiny Interactions + Your Questions Answered: Erica Bailey on Authenticity
So I'm just, you know, catching the fish and moving them to somewhere where they're safe. And I thought, oh, this is amazing. This guy's a fish hero. And what a cool story, you know? And so we continued talking and the conversation shifted away from the fish and You know, it was early days in the pandemic, so inevitably we ended up talking about that.
Hidden Brain
Relationships 2.0: The Power of Tiny Interactions + Your Questions Answered: Erica Bailey on Authenticity
And I discovered that he thought that the pandemic was a hoax and, you know, that the government was making up stories. And, you know, that's not my view. I couldn't understand why someone would think that way. You know, why would the government do that? And so, you know, I started to think, you know, I don't... who is this person and what's going on here? Here they are, a fish hero.
Hidden Brain
Relationships 2.0: The Power of Tiny Interactions + Your Questions Answered: Erica Bailey on Authenticity
How is a fish hero also having these, you just never know someone, do you?
Hidden Brain
Relationships 2.0: The Power of Tiny Interactions + Your Questions Answered: Erica Bailey on Authenticity
You know, I just think that we can serve a benefit to other people by talking to them and by listening to them. So I think it's pretty rare, at least in my own experience. I don't tend to get into any kind of heated topics when I'm talking to a complete stranger. It's usually fairly innocuous and fun.
Hidden Brain
Relationships 2.0: The Power of Tiny Interactions + Your Questions Answered: Erica Bailey on Authenticity
It doesn't get into politics and religion and all the heavy stuff that we avoid at the Thanksgiving dinner table. a fun interaction. So I just let him talk a little bit, but yeah, it just sort of drew to a natural close and I moved on.
Hidden Brain
Relationships 2.0: The Power of Tiny Interactions + Your Questions Answered: Erica Bailey on Authenticity
So, yeah, I've run a bunch of studies in the lab where I've asked people to predict how a conversation will go. Then they actually have a conversation with a stranger, and then they tell me how it went. And the people's worries before the conversation are quite high, but after having the conversation, they say, you know, none of those things actually happened.
Hidden Brain
Relationships 2.0: The Power of Tiny Interactions + Your Questions Answered: Erica Bailey on Authenticity
But if you ask them to predict what would happen if they had another conversation right now, those fears sort of creep back up, not all the way to the level that they were at before the study, but definitely higher than they should be based on having just had a pleasant conversation. So it seems that people have trouble generalizing.
Hidden Brain
Relationships 2.0: The Power of Tiny Interactions + Your Questions Answered: Erica Bailey on Authenticity
And, you know, it makes some sense because every human is unique, right? So it'd be easy to think, well, just because I had a nice conversation with this person, why would I expect to have a nice conversation with the next person?
Hidden Brain
Relationships 2.0: The Power of Tiny Interactions + Your Questions Answered: Erica Bailey on Authenticity
The only way I can think of to fix this would be to get people to have a lot of conversations so they can start to see a pattern, start to see that most of these conversations are pleasant. But how am I going to do that when people don't even want to have one conversation with a stranger, let alone lots? And so I kind of stole an idea.
Hidden Brain
Relationships 2.0: The Power of Tiny Interactions + Your Questions Answered: Erica Bailey on Authenticity
I was thinking, you know, I need people to, I need to turn it into a game. I need to make it fun somehow. And so I was thinking, maybe I could turn it into a bingo game or something. But a researcher in my department had placed posters around the building. They were recruiting people for a study involving a scavenger hunt. And it was a study about memory. But I thought, oh, scavenger hunt.
Hidden Brain
Relationships 2.0: The Power of Tiny Interactions + Your Questions Answered: Erica Bailey on Authenticity
Yeah, actually, I feel like my whole family was the opposite of me, but especially my dad. So my dad is just, I think he's sort of a king of talking to people. He had this knack for approaching people and figuring out how to connect with them and start a conversation. And so anywhere we went would take a really long time.
Hidden Brain
Relationships 2.0: The Power of Tiny Interactions + Your Questions Answered: Erica Bailey on Authenticity
I could get people to do a scavenger hunt game that involves finding and talking to strangers.
Hidden Brain
Relationships 2.0: The Power of Tiny Interactions + Your Questions Answered: Erica Bailey on Authenticity
Well, people and conversations with strangers are a treasure. Come on. So, yeah, I came up with a list of missions that were things like, you know, find someone who's wearing a hat or find someone who's drinking a coffee. I came up with a whole list of missions, about 30 of them. And, you know, I wanted them to be easy.
Hidden Brain
Relationships 2.0: The Power of Tiny Interactions + Your Questions Answered: Erica Bailey on Authenticity
I didn't, you know, most scavenger hunts, you're trying to make it a little tricky so people can't find everything, right? But I wanted people to be able to accomplish every single mission.
Hidden Brain
Relationships 2.0: The Power of Tiny Interactions + Your Questions Answered: Erica Bailey on Authenticity
We found that over the course of the study, every day people reported being less and less worried about being rejected by the people they approached and more and more confident in their ability to start and maintain and end the conversation. And so it really did seem that there was this gradual improvement and that repeated practice was important. Just having one conversation was not enough.
Hidden Brain
Relationships 2.0: The Power of Tiny Interactions + Your Questions Answered: Erica Bailey on Authenticity
It was this gradual improvement over time that stuck even a week after the scavenger hunt had ended. People still had more positive feelings towards talking to strangers.
Hidden Brain
Relationships 2.0: The Power of Tiny Interactions + Your Questions Answered: Erica Bailey on Authenticity
The workshops sort of became research and then the research fed back into the workshops. But really, it's just a big practice session. You know, you're bringing in a bunch of people who think they'd like to learn more how to talk to strangers. And so before the workshop starts, it's very quiet in the room.
Hidden Brain
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There's crickets because everyone feels a bit awkward and they don't know what to do, what's going to happen. And so I always start the workshop by just saying, okay, you have to turn to someone sitting next to you and just say, have a conversation right now. And then it's just this beautiful moment because there's this buzz in the room and it's just like, oh my God, people are talking.
Hidden Brain
Relationships 2.0: The Power of Tiny Interactions + Your Questions Answered: Erica Bailey on Authenticity
And then it's really hard to shut people up.
Hidden Brain
Relationships 2.0: The Power of Tiny Interactions + Your Questions Answered: Erica Bailey on Authenticity
Yeah, I have a few different go-to methods now. So maybe it's especially an English thing. They joke about it all the time, but it's talk about the weather, right? And I think the reason we do that is because it's a shared circumstance, right? It's something we're both experiencing at the same time. So I think that principle can be used more broadly. So
Hidden Brain
Relationships 2.0: The Power of Tiny Interactions + Your Questions Answered: Erica Bailey on Authenticity
If you're in the same place as this person at the same time, then you have various things in common with them already. So you can comment on the shared situation that you happen to be in. If you're on a bus or something and something unusual happens, then all of a sudden you're all on the same team, aren't you?
Hidden Brain
Relationships 2.0: The Power of Tiny Interactions + Your Questions Answered: Erica Bailey on Authenticity
You know, going to the grocery store would take three hours because he would stop and talk to everybody, especially kids. He loves talking to kids. He'd always tease them and get them talking. But he would ask a kid who looked like they were about five or six years old, he'd say, how old are you, 12, 13?
Hidden Brain
Relationships 2.0: The Power of Tiny Interactions + Your Questions Answered: Erica Bailey on Authenticity
Everybody talks when they never would have talked before because you've experienced this situation together. But sometimes I do it in a different way, which is by pointing out something that I'm seeing in the environment. Sometimes I'll point out happy, playful dogs to someone else that's walking past me in the park and just draw their attention to it.
Hidden Brain
Relationships 2.0: The Power of Tiny Interactions + Your Questions Answered: Erica Bailey on Authenticity
Or I've pointed out the spring flowers that are popping up. But that's also linked to sort of the last sort of main technique I use, which is just to tap into your curiosity. So I can't tell you how many conversations I've started just by going up to someone and saying... what you doing? Like I did with the fish hero. You know, I saw him scooping up fish in a net and I thought, what is he doing?
Hidden Brain
Relationships 2.0: The Power of Tiny Interactions + Your Questions Answered: Erica Bailey on Authenticity
And so I've gone up to lots of different people. I think you have to be a little careful because you don't want it to come across as accusatory. It has to come across as curious. So you have to do it with this sort of, you know, lightness in your voice that it's, you know, just out of curiosity and fun rather than being an accusation.
Hidden Brain
Relationships 2.0: The Power of Tiny Interactions + Your Questions Answered: Erica Bailey on Authenticity
Yeah, I really am still trying to work that out. I mean, most of the time that I talk to strangers, I'm out walking around the park or something, and it's really easy to just sort of walk away when you're finished, as opposed to being on a bus or sitting next to someone on the plane.
Hidden Brain
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People don't talk until it's 15 minutes before the landing because otherwise they're stuck there for the whole flight, right? But I've definitely gotten stuck in conversations, and I feel like I'm still not very good at figuring out how to get out of them. And, you know, I've run these how to talk to strangers workshops.
Hidden Brain
Relationships 2.0: The Power of Tiny Interactions + Your Questions Answered: Erica Bailey on Authenticity
And like I said earlier, people can come up with a hundred ways to start a conversation. Nobody really knows how to end them. Most of the time when people are brainstorming, it's just a list of lies. It's just, you know, I need to go to the bathroom. I need to make a phone call.
Hidden Brain
Relationships 2.0: The Power of Tiny Interactions + Your Questions Answered: Erica Bailey on Authenticity
Yes, we've all seen those episodes on TV, haven't we? If you haven't heard from me, call me in seven minutes and help me get out of this. It depends on the situation.
Hidden Brain
Relationships 2.0: The Power of Tiny Interactions + Your Questions Answered: Erica Bailey on Authenticity
Like if it's a mixer or a networking event where it's sort of intended for people to have, you know, talk to multiple partners, then there are some sort of clever things you can do like introduce the person to someone else and then move on.
Hidden Brain
Relationships 2.0: The Power of Tiny Interactions + Your Questions Answered: Erica Bailey on Authenticity
But when I've taught these workshops, there's always one person, and I think it's literally one person, who says that they just thank the person for the conversation and sort of signal that it's over and it's time to move on, and maybe even explicitly say that. It's been nice talking to you, but I think it's time for us to go now.
Hidden Brain
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You know, just something ridiculous that would make them feel like they had to sort of disagree with what he'd said. Or he'd ask them, you know, if they had any pets at home and, you know, ask if they had a pet alligator or a pet hippopotamus. You know, just ridiculous things that would make them respond.
Hidden Brain
Relationships 2.0: The Power of Tiny Interactions + Your Questions Answered: Erica Bailey on Authenticity
And everyone looks at this person and kind of says, you can do that? So, you know, that tells me how uncommon it is, but, you know, why not? So I've definitely been trying to do that more often is to just, you know, thank the person, acknowledge, you know, I think that's what we want, right?
Hidden Brain
Relationships 2.0: The Power of Tiny Interactions + Your Questions Answered: Erica Bailey on Authenticity
We don't, it's very unpleasant when you're talking to someone and instead of saying that, they just start looking around and you can see them kind of fidget. Like that's the worst, right? It would be much better if someone just said, thank you. And, you know, I'm going to move on now.
Hidden Brain
Relationships 2.0: The Power of Tiny Interactions + Your Questions Answered: Erica Bailey on Authenticity
So at the How to Talk to Strangers workshops that I've run, I've heard those kind of comments from both genders, actually. So women are nervous about talking to a man because they don't want to send the wrong signals. And men are worried about talking to women because... They don't want to have their behavior interpreted in the wrong way.
Hidden Brain
Relationships 2.0: The Power of Tiny Interactions + Your Questions Answered: Erica Bailey on Authenticity
So, yeah, I think everybody's sort of nervous about talking to each other. And it's really a shame, isn't it? Because we don't want to not talk to half of the human population. But I don't think we have to get stuck there. Like, I think there's probably things we can do in our body language to signal that, you know, by keeping some distance, maybe, you know, less intense eye contact.
Hidden Brain
Relationships 2.0: The Power of Tiny Interactions + Your Questions Answered: Erica Bailey on Authenticity
I think there's some probably some things we can do to signal that we're just being friendly and not, you know, or we could, you know, explicitly say it like, look, I'm not hitting on you. I'm just, you know, being friendly. Yeah.
Hidden Brain
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Yeah. And there's a few reasons for that. One is completely selfish because, you know, I'm very much an introvert. And so that's still an environment that I don't feel comfortable in when there's a lot of people, especially when there's lots of people I don't know, or it's a really kind of noisy environment. That's when I feel the most uncomfortable.
Hidden Brain
Relationships 2.0: The Power of Tiny Interactions + Your Questions Answered: Erica Bailey on Authenticity
And I know that the way to fix that to make myself feel better is to get into a one-to-one conversation with someone. But then in addition to that, I'd like to think that there's a pro-social motive as well. You look around the room and you see someone else who doesn't have anyone to talk to. I know now that so many of us feel anxious, socially anxious or socially awkward.
Hidden Brain
Relationships 2.0: The Power of Tiny Interactions + Your Questions Answered: Erica Bailey on Authenticity
I definitely would say, Dad, I couldn't understand the compulsion that he had. Why are you doing this, Dad? They don't want to talk to you. They're doing their grocery shopping. Why would someone want to stop and talk to a complete stranger?
Hidden Brain
Relationships 2.0: The Power of Tiny Interactions + Your Questions Answered: Erica Bailey on Authenticity
So there's guaranteed to be somebody else who doesn't really know anybody and doesn't have someone to talk to. And so I'll look around for that person and go and start a conversation with them. And so I'd like to think that it's helping both of us.
Hidden Brain
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Just recently, actually, a couple of weeks ago, I had a moment where where it really struck me how far I've come. So I was at the opera, and I had come back from the intermission, and I started chatting with the people who were sitting next to me, sort of farther in from the aisle than I was. And I said, how are you doing? And they said, fine-ish. And I thought, ooh.
Hidden Brain
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Something is really wrong if a complete stranger admits that they're not just fine, right? And I said, you know, what's going on? And it turned out that the woman had Parkinson's and she was feeling very uncomfortable sitting where she was and she was worried that she might need to leave partway through the second act, but she was so far in from the aisle that it would mean disrupting everybody.
Hidden Brain
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She had thought that she would be sitting on the aisle and so she was very upset to find out that she wasn't. And So I said, would you like me to ask if people would be willing to move over so you could sit on the aisle? And I offered this thinking, probably she's going to say no because it will feel like a big deal. But surprisingly, she said, yes, that would be wonderful.
Hidden Brain
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I would feel so much more comfortable. And so I said, no problem. And so I talked to two couples and I asked them if they'd be willing to move over. And of course, they were happy to do it. You know, most people are kind. And if you ask them, you know, they'll do something like that. I'm sure they felt good to be able to do that.
Hidden Brain
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So we all moved over and the couple, you know, moved over to the aisle. And as her husband passed me, he said, you know, thank you so much. I couldn't have done that. it really just struck me in that moment, like past Jillian couldn't have done that either. And so it was really a moment where I realized, wow, somehow everything has changed in these baby steps. You know, I'm a complete introvert.
Hidden Brain
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He would just ignore me and enjoy his conversation because he was having such a good time. He likes to say, you know, everybody has a story. So he just loves meeting people and having a chat.
Hidden Brain
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I never would have thought of talking to strangers years ago. And here I am and asking people to move over in their seat was just not a problem at all. Didn't even think twice about it. You know, like it just has no fear for me anymore. Because I've had so many pleasant conversations with people over the years that, you know, I knew it would go well.
Hidden Brain
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My dad would have been proud. Yeah, I did tell him this story. I think he was quite proud.
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Relationships 2.0: The Power of Tiny Interactions + Your Questions Answered: Erica Bailey on Authenticity
Thank you for having me.
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Relationships 2.0: The Power of Tiny Interactions + Your Questions Answered: Erica Bailey on Authenticity
So I was, I think, about 25, and I was on the plane on my own on this business trip, which seemed quite exciting. And I'd just recently gotten married, and I'd taken on my husband's surname. And they were making an announcement about a bunch of different people's names being called out, something to do with baggage. I didn't know what was going on, but...
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At some point, they said, you know, would passenger Sandstrom please identify themselves? And I thought, well, they couldn't mean me because, you know, that's not my name anymore. And I knew I should have checked, but I was too anxious and embarrassed to push that button and call over the flight attendant, so I didn't say anything.
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And so, of course, what happened is I got to the other end, got off the plane, went to the belt to collect my luggage, and, of course, it wasn't there. And so I had to go and buy a tourist T-shirt, which is what I wore to the first day on this business trip.
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But on top of all that, I had the feeling I'd given up this other career that had been going really well. Did I make the right decision? Should I be here? All these people are so much younger than me. So it's just this feeling, kind of imposter syndrome feeling of, did I make the right decision? Should I be here?
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I would go to the research lab to do my studies, but then my supervisor had an office in a different building. And so when I walked between those two buildings, I would pass on the street corner, there was a hot dog stand because I was at a university right downtown Toronto.
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And I started to develop sort of accidentally develop a relationship with a lady who worked at the hot dog stand that I would pass by and seeing her there and knowing that she recognized me, you know, we'd smile, we'd wave. I don't even know if we talked to each other, but we just had this relationship built on these little minimal. Signs.
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So, on a day when I didn't see the hot dog lady, I would feel disappointed and kind of... not lonely, but sort of unmoored, you know, because I think I came to think that the hot dog lady and people like her, like the kind of we have lots of relationships like that, these little tiny relationships that maybe don't seem particularly important.
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But I feel like they kind of you're kind of woven into the social fabric, you know, and so I felt a bit unmoored and uncentered when she was missing.
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Yes. So a sociologist in the 70s named Mark Granovetter coined these kind of relationships weak ties and as opposed to strong ties, which are the ones with close friends and family. And it's tricky to come up with a definition because, you know, one of the original thoughts was there are people that we see less often.
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But I don't think that's necessarily true because people like the hot dog lady I would see here on a very regular basis or, you know, You know, you might run into someone at the school drop-off every day.
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So I don't think frequency is necessarily a factor here, but definitely close friends and family are the people that you feel the most comfortable with and you'd be most willing to sort of share your deepest, darkest secrets with.
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But, you know, weak ties are, you know, you can feel fondly towards them positively, but you're probably less likely to feel like you'd want to confide in them and share something that feels very personal.
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I said I wanted to study the hot dog lady. She said, what makes you happy? You know, her lab is the happy lab. What makes you happy? And I said, well, the hot dog lady makes me happy. You know, having these little interactions throughout my day with people that I'm not really close to and would never, you know, invite over for a drink or anything.
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But, you know, having this familiarity and feeling of connection with those kind of people just really feels good to me. And I wanted to know, you know, is it just me or is this a more general thing? Do people generally feel good from having these kind of relationships?
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I wanted to know, you know, does the number of interactions that people have with weak ties sort of relate to their happiness? So my hypothesis was, you know, given my personal experience, maybe on the days that you have more interactions with weak ties, you feel a little bit happier. So I got students at first and then later just members of the community involved.
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to carry around two clickers, sort of in their pocket, two different colors. And every time that they talked to someone throughout the day, they were supposed to click. So one of the clickers was to count their interactions with strong ties. That would be people like you just mentioned, you know, a close friend or family member.
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And then the other clicker was to count the number of interactions they had with weak ties.
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And as you'd expect, the number of interactions you had with your close others, your strong ties, predicted happiness and feelings of belonging. But also, independently, the number of interactions that people had with weak ties also mattered. So on average, people who tended to have more interactions on a given day
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with weak ties tend to be a little happier than people who have fewer interactions with weak ties. But then also regardless of what your personal average is, on a day when you talk to a few more weak ties than you usually do, you tend to be a little happier than you usually are.
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So yeah, I was looking at weak ties as having other advantages that maybe hadn't been looked at before. So these well-being benefits and emotional benefits.
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I think the difference is actually pretty small. So I think a weak tie, my definition is just someone with whom you have sort of mutual familiarity. So the hot dog lady was a weak tie. The first time I talked to her, she was a stranger. But when we saw each other again and she recognized me and I recognized her, I think at that point she's no longer a stranger. She is a weak tie. Okay.
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Right. So I, you know, sort of inspired by the hot dog lady, I thought the closest thing I could think of, you know, I really wanted to study that phenomenon. And I was aware that lots of people have sort of their favorite barista at the coffee shop and people go into the coffee shop and the person knows their name and knows what their regular order is and it makes you feel really good.
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And so I really wanted to study that phenomenon. So I asked people, I recruited people walking past a Starbucks in Vancouver, gave them a gift card. And I said, the only catch is that when you go in to buy your coffee, you have to follow some instructions. And some people, the instructions were, you know, when you go in to buy your coffee, just be as efficient as possible.
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And I tried to tell people this would be a good thing. The barista's busy and just wants to get through their day and you'd be helping them out. So have your money ready. and avoid unnecessary conversation. I mean, you have to talk to place your order. And then the other group of people, I said, okay, when you go in, try to turn it into a real genuine social interaction.
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So smile, make eye contact and have a little chat. And, you know, plenty of people said they do this anyway. And I said, well, just amp it up, you know, do it even more than you usually do. And so people bought their coffee, followed the instructions. And then when they came out, I asked them to fill out a short survey.
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And what we found was that people who'd had this just tiny little social interaction, you know, had treated the barista as if they would treat one who knew their name and knew their order. If they had that social interaction, they were in a better mood and they felt more satisfied with their Starbucks experience and they felt a greater sense of connection to other people.