Gordon Carrera

I think Richard O'Rourke uses that Anthony Blunt comparison.

I think it's a good one, which is sometimes it's easier just to kind of hush things up, but it gets harder.

I mean, there's another bizarre twist.

So in April 2012, that former Frew member, Hurst, uses a false name and pretends to be a journalist and calls General Sir John Wilsey, who'd been general officer commanding for the army in Northern Ireland.

on the phone at his home.

And Wilsey's written a book, a memoir called Ulster Tales, which had, we talked about this, I think, in the second episode about, you know, he talks without using the name State Knife, I think he used the name Curbstone, about the recruitment of an agent.

And you can hear this, you know, this conversation, the recorded conversation between Hearst, posing as journalist, and Wilsey on the BBC podcast series, which is excellent, called State Knife.

And it's staggering because Hearst calls up this army officer and he says, there are documents, there's a recording of you admitting to being in a car with Freddy Scappaticci.

And Wildsey, the general, you know, he's quite elderly at this point, goes, I was in a car with him.

Hearst goes, yeah, in South Belfast.

And it's recorded in some contact forms we have.

That doesn't sound right to me.

I don't know Freddy Scappa.

Who is he?

You don't know who Freddy Scappaticci is?

No, not by that name, no.

Well, you know him as State Knife.

Oh, that chap.

Yes, sorry.

And so he basically tricks this general into admitting that, oh yeah, Scappaticci, steak knife.