Gordon Carrera

This is a guy who's not necessarily thought, I want to go to war, but has made a commitment to Bush that he will go to war with him if the process is followed, particularly going through the UN.

And now suddenly that's falling apart.

I think it is split, basically.

Whereas the US public is broadly supportive because you're in that post 9-11 world.

In the UK, it was, of course, everyone now says I was against the war, but it was broadly split down the middle if you look at the politics of it.

But for the UK, getting a second resolution from the UN was really important because they want to get that second resolution to authorise military action because then it is legal to

And through the UN and politically for Tony Blair at home, within his government, within his party, in the Labour Party, that was really, really important.

And they're going to struggle to get that.

That's right.

I think it is a fascinating moment.

There were a few people in MI6 who asked to be moved, I think, because they're distasteful for the war, but didn't speak out publicly.

But Catherine Gunn goes public when she sees this email saying we're going to spy on the UN and is opposed to the war and goes public with it.

As you said, the prosecution against her is eventually dropped.

There's a film, Official Secrets, about this.

It's a fascinating story about her.

I think it's interesting, though, because...

Are we shocked by the idea that the US and UK were spying on the United Nations?

Right.

Are we?

I don't know.