Greg Jenner

So, Michelle, is this... I'm slightly worried where we're going next, but are we going next into sort of, you know, demonic territory of, you know, naughty things?

Sophie's back on board.

Sophie's back on board.

More than that, Sophie, Benedetta is claiming that the angel Splenditello is making them do it.

More than that, Sophie, Benedetta is claiming that the angel Splenditello is making them do it.

Uh-oh. Yeah. Uh-oh. Wow.

Uh-oh. Yeah. Uh-oh. Wow.

So, Michelle, I think the question we have to ask at this point now is, you know, we can all have a laugh about these sort of things, but actually what's quite interesting is there is a sort of moment in that testimony where Bartholomew sort of says she was sort of made to lie on her back, and that brings up ideas perhaps of coercion, perhaps of one person having more power than the other,

So, Michelle, I think the question we have to ask at this point now is, you know, we can all have a laugh about these sort of things, but actually what's quite interesting is there is a sort of moment in that testimony where Bartholomew sort of says she was sort of made to lie on her back, and that brings up ideas perhaps of coercion, perhaps of one person having more power than the other,

So is this a standard typical lesbian relationship between two consenting women, or do we have something more problematic here?

So is this a standard typical lesbian relationship between two consenting women, or do we have something more problematic here?

Yeah, it's definitely a problematic relationship, but it's also problematic for us because it comes to us through the official testimony of nuncio papal legates. It's slightly refracted through. So the phrasing that is used in the official interrogation is called the immodest act. So what is the outcome of this investigation, Michelle, the second investigation from the Pope's man?

Yeah, it's definitely a problematic relationship, but it's also problematic for us because it comes to us through the official testimony of nuncio papal legates. It's slightly refracted through. So the phrasing that is used in the official interrogation is called the immodest act. So what is the outcome of this investigation, Michelle, the second investigation from the Pope's man?

Oh, Sophie. That's a bit of a vibe shift on the episode there, isn't it?

Oh, Sophie. That's a bit of a vibe shift on the episode there, isn't it?

Time now for the nuance window. This is the part of the show where Sophie and I set down our needles and sit in silent contemplation for two minutes while Professor Michelle takes to the pulpit to preach something that we need to know about Benedetta Carlini. So my stopwatch is ready. You have two minutes. Take it away, Professor Michelle.

Time now for the nuance window. This is the part of the show where Sophie and I set down our needles and sit in silent contemplation for two minutes while Professor Michelle takes to the pulpit to preach something that we need to know about Benedetta Carlini. So my stopwatch is ready. You have two minutes. Take it away, Professor Michelle.

Thank you, Sophie. Thank you, Professor Michelle. Listener, if after today's episode you want more dukkah in your ears, check out our episodes on Atlantis, Ramsey's The Great, Ashanti Garner and the Chevalier de Saint-Georges. What about catalogue? And if you've enjoyed hearing about the Naughty Nun, why not listen to our episode on the profane popes of the early medieval papacy?

Thank you, Sophie. Thank you, Professor Michelle. Listener, if after today's episode you want more dukkah in your ears, check out our episodes on Atlantis, Ramsey's The Great, Ashanti Garner and the Chevalier de Saint-Georges. What about catalogue? And if you've enjoyed hearing about the Naughty Nun, why not listen to our episode on the profane popes of the early medieval papacy?

Those guys were, they were extra. Let's just put it that way. And remember, if you've enjoyed the podcast, please leave a review, share the show with your friends, subscribe to You're Dead to Me on BBC Sound so you never miss an episode. But all that's left for me to do is say a huge thank you to our guests in History Corner.