Greg Lukianoff

And I thought that was a dodge.

I thought that wasn't actually a very serious way that if you care about both the First Amendment and freedom of speech of thinking it through.

Yeah.

It's an older, bolder, more expansive idea.

And you can have a situation – and I talk about countries that have good free speech law but not necessarily great free speech culture.

And I talk about how when we sometimes make this distinction between free speech law and free speech culture, we're thinking in a very cloudy kind of way.

Yeah.

And what I mean by that is that law is generally – particularly in a common law country, it's the reflection of norms.

Judges are people too and in a lot of cases, common law is supposed to actually take our intuitive ideas of fairness and place them into the law.

So if you actually have a culture that doesn't appreciate free speech from a philosophical standpoint, it's not going to be able to protect free speech for the long haul even in the law because eventually – that's one of the reasons why I worry so much about some of these terrible cases coming out of law schools because I fear that even though, sure, American First Amendment law is very strongly protective of First Amendment rights.

For now, it's not going to stay that way if you have generations of law students graduating who actually think there's nothing, there's no higher goal than shouting down your opponent.

Yeah, you have this history, you know.

64, you have the free speech movement on Berkeley.

Mm-hmm.

And in 65, you have Repressive Tolerance by Herbert Marcuse, which was a declaration of, by the way, we on the left, we shouldn't – we should have free speech, but we should have free speech for us.

I mean I went back and reread Repressive Tolerance and how clear it is.

I forgot – I had forgotten that it really is kind of like – and these so-called conservatives and right-wingers –

We need to repress them because they're regressive thinkers.

It really doesn't come out to anything more sophisticated than the very old idea that our people are good.

They get free speech.