Haley Mlotek

And yet I find it so like, I don't know, like unsexy and Walton Goggins. I'm like, oh, those veneers. His like, oh, no, I'm like.

And yet I find it so like, I don't know, like unsexy and Walton Goggins. I'm like, oh, those veneers. His like, oh, no, I'm like.

Yeah, not someone's hurt him. Sorry. And you said I'll actually be next in line. Okay, finale predictions. What do you think?

Yeah, not someone's hurt him. Sorry. And you said I'll actually be next in line. Okay, finale predictions. What do you think?

As someone who was rich with board bucks, the like campus dining dollars, it was hard when I ran out of board bucks. And I was like, I can't get my little like stir fry from the Macs. Yeah, that's my closest comp. Who are you giving the gun to? I will give the gun maybe to Piper. Maybe to Piper to be like her annoying brother. She's like, I'm actually done with you guys.

As someone who was rich with board bucks, the like campus dining dollars, it was hard when I ran out of board bucks. And I was like, I can't get my little like stir fry from the Macs. Yeah, that's my closest comp. Who are you giving the gun to? I will give the gun maybe to Piper. Maybe to Piper to be like her annoying brother. She's like, I'm actually done with you guys.

And she's like, I'm going to kill my whole family because I actually want to stay. Like that's the only way I don't have to go home is if the rest of you guys go to heaven. She kills her whole family then is like, sorry about that. All right, let's lock in. Yeah, she's like, nah, I'm ready to meditate actually. Like she freaks out. I just got that out of my system. I'm good.

And she's like, I'm going to kill my whole family because I actually want to stay. Like that's the only way I don't have to go home is if the rest of you guys go to heaven. She kills her whole family then is like, sorry about that. All right, let's lock in. Yeah, she's like, nah, I'm ready to meditate actually. Like she freaks out. I just got that out of my system. I'm good.

So it interrupts her meditation. Oh, my God. I love a delusional white girl. Okay, well, I guess I'll see you here. The only thing I don't want to happen is the monkey thing. Because that's like... Me too. Me too.

So it interrupts her meditation. Oh, my God. I love a delusional white girl. Okay, well, I guess I'll see you here. The only thing I don't want to happen is the monkey thing. Because that's like... Me too. Me too.

Wait, wait, wait, wait. She shook the table. Your mom is Scarlett Johansson. Your mom said, actually, I don't want to be identified as being in this time and place with you. I eat the hike. Oh, I love it.

Wait, wait, wait, wait. She shook the table. Your mom is Scarlett Johansson. Your mom said, actually, I don't want to be identified as being in this time and place with you. I eat the hike. Oh, I love it.

So maybe there's... I know, but the girls were locked in saying a monkey was going to get the gun and just shoot people indiscriminately. And I thought they were so smart for it, too. Come on, Emerson College graduate. Shut up.

So maybe there's... I know, but the girls were locked in saying a monkey was going to get the gun and just shoot people indiscriminately. And I thought they were so smart for it, too. Come on, Emerson College graduate. Shut up.

This assailant starts firing at him. And the suspect. He has been identified as Luigi Nicholas Mangione.

This assailant starts firing at him. And the suspect. He has been identified as Luigi Nicholas Mangione.

He has been identified as Luigi Nicholas Mangione.

He has been identified as Luigi Nicholas Mangione.

It is really breakup season, I think.

It is really breakup season, I think.

Yeah, yeah, just a little bit. And there's no one better to talk about breakups with than the writer Hayley Milotic, who just wrote an amazing memoir about her divorce. I read the book before and during my breakup, and I was like, oh my gosh, this is shaking the table for me emotionally. I think me reading this book was like Peyton, you listening to any Glennon Doyle podcast.

Yeah, yeah, just a little bit. And there's no one better to talk about breakups with than the writer Hayley Milotic, who just wrote an amazing memoir about her divorce. I read the book before and during my breakup, and I was like, oh my gosh, this is shaking the table for me emotionally. I think me reading this book was like Peyton, you listening to any Glennon Doyle podcast.

That's why her name is Alicia Keys.

That's why her name is Alicia Keys.

Yeah, clocked. Mm-hmm. Not too much. Haley is a writer and editor living in Montreal, and her first book, No Fault, A Memoir of Romance and Divorce, is out now. Haley, welcome.

Yeah, clocked. Mm-hmm. Not too much. Haley is a writer and editor living in Montreal, and her first book, No Fault, A Memoir of Romance and Divorce, is out now. Haley, welcome.

Because listen, she's songs in a minor, like Diary of.

Because listen, she's songs in a minor, like Diary of.

Thank you so much for having me. Thank you for being here.

Thank you so much for having me. Thank you for being here.

Yes. We have a question that we ask everyone. Do you identify as a lover or a hater? I'm a lover.

Yes. We have a question that we ask everyone. Do you identify as a lover or a hater? I'm a lover.

I wish I could be a hater, but I know myself too well. Okay.

I wish I could be a hater, but I know myself too well. Okay.

No. I feel like I want to be a hater because the haters I know have much better and higher standards than I do. And like the lover in me is like a way to, you know, like, oh, but they have so much potential and that's no good. So we go together because that's what I feel about Hunter.

No. I feel like I want to be a hater because the haters I know have much better and higher standards than I do. And like the lover in me is like a way to, you know, like, oh, but they have so much potential and that's no good. So we go together because that's what I feel about Hunter.

Oh, I'm a lover of divorce. Thank God. I don't like it. You know, it's not nice. It's not fun. but I'm in love with it at the same time.

Oh, I'm a lover of divorce. Thank God. I don't like it. You know, it's not nice. It's not fun. but I'm in love with it at the same time.

Yeah, yeah, no, we are famously a proto-divorce podcast. So I wanna start with more questions about you. Tell me about your separation and like the decision to write about it.

Yeah, yeah, no, we are famously a proto-divorce podcast. So I wanna start with more questions about you. Tell me about your separation and like the decision to write about it.

Yes, okay. My separation happened a really long time ago. Now it does feel still so recent because of course I've had to kind of stay in that time period as I was writing the book. And now talking about the butt. But yes, my, my story, I think like all couples stories is very individual. It's certainly not representative of what I think is average for a lot of people.

Yes, okay. My separation happened a really long time ago. Now it does feel still so recent because of course I've had to kind of stay in that time period as I was writing the book. And now talking about the butt. But yes, my, my story, I think like all couples stories is very individual. It's certainly not representative of what I think is average for a lot of people.

We were together for a very long time. We got together quite young. We lived together for many years and then decided to separate after one year of marriage and So all of those things I've noticed that when I speak to other people about their divorce, a lot of those elements are common, even if they're not necessarily similar.

We were together for a very long time. We got together quite young. We lived together for many years and then decided to separate after one year of marriage and So all of those things I've noticed that when I speak to other people about their divorce, a lot of those elements are common, even if they're not necessarily similar.

And that was something that I think really was the starting point for why I wanted to write this book about divorce. Like in the book I write, it's this experience that's so common and yet it can never be ordinary. Yeah. I just think that is endlessly fascinating.

And that was something that I think really was the starting point for why I wanted to write this book about divorce. Like in the book I write, it's this experience that's so common and yet it can never be ordinary. Yeah. I just think that is endlessly fascinating.

Oh my gosh, you look so good. Peyton, where have you been?

Oh my gosh, you look so good. Peyton, where have you been?

And then tell us about like writing about that and how your own separation became kind of like a launching point to talk about divorce culturally in media and entertainment.

And then tell us about like writing about that and how your own separation became kind of like a launching point to talk about divorce culturally in media and entertainment.

I'm recommending divorce. That resonates. And that didn't end up happening. But my brilliant friend, the editor, Dana Tortorici, suggested maybe I just write that anyways for her at M plus one. And in the course of working with her, I actually started thinking about it seriously. I have a tendency to, you know, you've read the book, you've seen I can be a little opaque.

I'm recommending divorce. That resonates. And that didn't end up happening. But my brilliant friend, the editor, Dana Tortorici, suggested maybe I just write that anyways for her at M plus one. And in the course of working with her, I actually started thinking about it seriously. I have a tendency to, you know, you've read the book, you've seen I can be a little opaque.

No, actually, I'm stealing that. I'm using it. Yeah. I'm like, yeah, will be. That's my new many such cases. That's my new many such cases.

No, actually, I'm stealing that. I'm using it. Yeah. I'm like, yeah, will be. That's my new many such cases. That's my new many such cases.

I prefer a bit of a punchline over directness. But that was when I really started to realize that this was my subject and this was my topic and my genre. And soon after that, that's when I really went fully into the book itself. Yeah.

I prefer a bit of a punchline over directness. But that was when I really started to realize that this was my subject and this was my topic and my genre. And soon after that, that's when I really went fully into the book itself. Yeah.

I knew a lot about divorce, probably too much because my mother is a divorce mediator. What a specific job.

I knew a lot about divorce, probably too much because my mother is a divorce mediator. What a specific job.

Oh, my God.

Oh, my God.

I will introduce you.

I will introduce you.

She would love that. Yeah, she was trained as a teacher, actually. She went to school for education and then got certified as a family mediator because she was always interested in families and relationships and divorce. And I read in the book, my grandmother was divorced twice. So she also had a very... involved interest in the topic.

She would love that. Yeah, she was trained as a teacher, actually. She went to school for education and then got certified as a family mediator because she was always interested in families and relationships and divorce. And I read in the book, my grandmother was divorced twice. So she also had a very... involved interest in the topic.

And so there were always divorcing couples or families that had already been through a divorce in our basement, working out their parenting plans or their separation agreements. And so it definitely didn't seem normal. Even when I was a kid, I understood that it was unusual, but it certainly seemed very present. There were enough people coming through that it made it obvious to me that

And so there were always divorcing couples or families that had already been through a divorce in our basement, working out their parenting plans or their separation agreements. And so it definitely didn't seem normal. Even when I was a kid, I understood that it was unusual, but it certainly seemed very present. There were enough people coming through that it made it obvious to me that

It didn't resonate.

It didn't resonate.

that, you know, somehow this was this thing that people talked about as though it was so awful and should be avoided. And yet we were all in some way participating in it.

that, you know, somehow this was this thing that people talked about as though it was so awful and should be avoided. And yet we were all in some way participating in it.

One thing that I love about No Fault so much, and I told you this before, is that how it is on like dual tracks of memoir and research, I think is so powerful and well done. Can you tell us some of the things that you learned about divorce? as a concept and as a piece of our present day legal system, I guess, that were really fascinating to you?

One thing that I love about No Fault so much, and I told you this before, is that how it is on like dual tracks of memoir and research, I think is so powerful and well done. Can you tell us some of the things that you learned about divorce? as a concept and as a piece of our present day legal system, I guess, that were really fascinating to you?

Well, let me tell you a little story about me being addicted to the job. Because tell me why. I was like, okay, I'm 30 years old. I see my face a decent amount doing this podcast. Dare I break the fourth wall? Okay. In every Zoom, all of that. And I'm like, I think I have a giant forehead. Not news to anyone here. I think I need like a touch of Botox. Early lines.

Well, let me tell you a little story about me being addicted to the job. Because tell me why. I was like, okay, I'm 30 years old. I see my face a decent amount doing this podcast. Dare I break the fourth wall? Okay. In every Zoom, all of that. And I'm like, I think I have a giant forehead. Not news to anyone here. I think I need like a touch of Botox. Early lines.

Yes. Thank you so much. I'm so glad you thought that. Yeah, I definitely started doing the research because I was in over my head. It's such a huge topic that I didn't even know where to start. And even now, I still think I could have done more or I could have found other ways into the topic, but I knew I wanted to focus on North America.

Yes. Thank you so much. I'm so glad you thought that. Yeah, I definitely started doing the research because I was in over my head. It's such a huge topic that I didn't even know where to start. And even now, I still think I could have done more or I could have found other ways into the topic, but I knew I wanted to focus on North America.

And I knew that I wanted to focus on the concept of what's most commonly called no fault divorce, because I felt like that represented a before and after for our understanding of it. You know, in the time when you really had to not make up a story, but at least tell a story that a judge would believe in order to grant you a divorce.

And I knew that I wanted to focus on the concept of what's most commonly called no fault divorce, because I felt like that represented a before and after for our understanding of it. You know, in the time when you really had to not make up a story, but at least tell a story that a judge would believe in order to grant you a divorce.

the influence that that had on the way people saw their relationships and their families was so massive that it seemed like there was no way that you could just flip a switch in the year 1970, which was when no-fault divorce was first introduced in America, and everybody would let that go.

the influence that that had on the way people saw their relationships and their families was so massive that it seemed like there was no way that you could just flip a switch in the year 1970, which was when no-fault divorce was first introduced in America, and everybody would let that go.

To me, what I really wanted to explore was whether or not we sort of took the concept of fault out of courtrooms and into our conversations, because I do think the tendency is always To wonder during a breakup, whose fault is it or who wanted it, who asked for it versus who was broken up with. And to me, that really reflects that same idea of who's at fault.

To me, what I really wanted to explore was whether or not we sort of took the concept of fault out of courtrooms and into our conversations, because I do think the tendency is always To wonder during a breakup, whose fault is it or who wanted it, who asked for it versus who was broken up with. And to me, that really reflects that same idea of who's at fault.

And so a lot of the research was really fascinating. I did think it was so funny. when I learned that Vatican City doesn't allow any divorce legally, just because that's so cute that they put that into writing. Just in case, just in case. Yeah, so filing for divorce when they're visiting Vatican City for the afternoon.

And so a lot of the research was really fascinating. I did think it was so funny. when I learned that Vatican City doesn't allow any divorce legally, just because that's so cute that they put that into writing. Just in case, just in case. Yeah, so filing for divorce when they're visiting Vatican City for the afternoon.

But then also, you know, these really odd pockets of history where something that I love talking about is in the time where you had to have very specific requirements for what would allow you to get a divorce. you would have couples just repeating the exact same stories to judges. And so the divorce rates were the same, but perjury rates were going up because you're fucking with us basically.

But then also, you know, these really odd pockets of history where something that I love talking about is in the time where you had to have very specific requirements for what would allow you to get a divorce. you would have couples just repeating the exact same stories to judges. And so the divorce rates were the same, but perjury rates were going up because you're fucking with us basically.

But that was, what else did they do? Except one of them had to be like, fine, I cheated, you know, in order to get the divorce. Yeah. And then I really, really loved learning about, I mean, I didn't love it because a lot of it's really bleak, but the history of how marriage and the family are used for political ends, both, For like neoliberal and neoconservative movements.

But that was, what else did they do? Except one of them had to be like, fine, I cheated, you know, in order to get the divorce. Yeah. And then I really, really loved learning about, I mean, I didn't love it because a lot of it's really bleak, but the history of how marriage and the family are used for political ends, both, For like neoliberal and neoconservative movements.

I thought that was really fascinating. And it sort of made a lot of the things that I think I'd always felt or sensed much more easily observed in real life. I have a question for you.

I thought that was really fascinating. And it sort of made a lot of the things that I think I'd always felt or sensed much more easily observed in real life. I have a question for you.

Well, you know, it's so funny because I'm still kind of in my head compiling a list of divorce books or movies. Endless list. Endless list.

Well, you know, it's so funny because I'm still kind of in my head compiling a list of divorce books or movies. Endless list. Endless list.

It'll be going for my entire life now. Yeah, I don't know if either of you have seen Hester Street, but I just watched it this weekend. It's on Criterion as part of the Joan Mifflin Silver collection.

It'll be going for my entire life now. Yeah, I don't know if either of you have seen Hester Street, but I just watched it this weekend. It's on Criterion as part of the Joan Mifflin Silver collection.

And I didn't know that that's an amazing divorce movie, you know? And so I was like, oh, you know, next time I write a big sweeping memoir and cultural critique of divorce, I have to remember to include that. But I also, you know, I just... I just love women. And I love... Same.

And I didn't know that that's an amazing divorce movie, you know? And so I was like, oh, you know, next time I write a big sweeping memoir and cultural critique of divorce, I have to remember to include that. But I also, you know, I just... I just love women. And I love... Same.

To a yes fault. And so like, you know, I always talk about women like Elizabeth Hardwick or Grace Paley. Definitely, I think I gravitate towards mid-century writers, actually, or like mid-century to like the late 70s. Ellen Willis is another one. And then, you know, I'm spoiled for options on divorce writing. And at the present moment, there are so many of my peers who are also writing about it.

To a yes fault. And so like, you know, I always talk about women like Elizabeth Hardwick or Grace Paley. Definitely, I think I gravitate towards mid-century writers, actually, or like mid-century to like the late 70s. Ellen Willis is another one. And then, you know, I'm spoiled for options on divorce writing. And at the present moment, there are so many of my peers who are also writing about it.

Like they don't bother me now, but like they're going to bother me like in like three or four years. So I go to my dermatologist who I've been seeing for like, geez, like nine years. Like since I moved to New York. Oh, wow. And she's like kind of make some expressions for me. And I was like, I just want like these like few lines up here kind of like smoothed out, dulled, whatever.

Like they don't bother me now, but like they're going to bother me like in like three or four years. So I go to my dermatologist who I've been seeing for like, geez, like nine years. Like since I moved to New York. Oh, wow. And she's like kind of make some expressions for me. And I was like, I just want like these like few lines up here kind of like smoothed out, dulled, whatever.

I also love how much you love Waiting to Exhale, which I think in your book you called your first favorite movie about divorce that begins with a car on fire. Yes. And the second favorite is 20th Century Woman, which is both of them are classics in my home.

I also love how much you love Waiting to Exhale, which I think in your book you called your first favorite movie about divorce that begins with a car on fire. Yes. And the second favorite is 20th Century Woman, which is both of them are classics in my home.

No, you, you already know.

No, you, you already know.

Yeah. I mean, definitely at the time I felt a little bit alone in it because I was, I think the 30 when I separated, which is relatively young, like the JoJo's, I was basically like a child bride, even though I'm a fully grown woman and that's a very common age. But at the time I was living in New York and I was working in media, so it was already a little bit unusual.

Yeah. I mean, definitely at the time I felt a little bit alone in it because I was, I think the 30 when I separated, which is relatively young, like the JoJo's, I was basically like a child bride, even though I'm a fully grown woman and that's a very common age. But at the time I was living in New York and I was working in media, so it was already a little bit unusual.

So that felt a little bit lonely. And I remember one specific instance where I went on a date with somebody who was a little bit older than me, but not much, like maybe five years or so. And he had been divorced and I got so excited. I was like, oh my God, me too. You know, and I really just want to talk about it.

So that felt a little bit lonely. And I remember one specific instance where I went on a date with somebody who was a little bit older than me, but not much, like maybe five years or so. And he had been divorced and I got so excited. I was like, oh my God, me too. You know, and I really just want to talk about it.

And he was like, you are the only woman that's ever responded this way to the fact of being divorced. I don't think he liked it. So that was a learning curve, but something I did realize and I hope comes through in the book, which is of course focused on divorce because that's, so much tied up in like law and the culture.

And he was like, you are the only woman that's ever responded this way to the fact of being divorced. I don't think he liked it. So that was a learning curve, but something I did realize and I hope comes through in the book, which is of course focused on divorce because that's, so much tied up in like law and the culture.

But I do think there are so many types of breakups that have the same power and impact that a divorce can on a life, but they aren't given the same almost courtesy or respect because they don't have that label. And once I realized that, that changed how I saw the community because there were so many people who did talk to me about

But I do think there are so many types of breakups that have the same power and impact that a divorce can on a life, but they aren't given the same almost courtesy or respect because they don't have that label. And once I realized that, that changed how I saw the community because there were so many people who did talk to me about

You know, living in a home you once shared by yourself for the first time or losing the connection to your significant other's family or things like that, which is they hadn't been divorced, didn't mean that their experience wasn't so similar to mine.

You know, living in a home you once shared by yourself for the first time or losing the connection to your significant other's family or things like that, which is they hadn't been divorced, didn't mean that their experience wasn't so similar to mine.

Yeah. Oh, I love that answer, especially because, I mean, growing up with my mom is divorced, my grandmother was divorced. It felt like when you got divorced as a woman, you were entering into a community of women. like a first wives club, like a wedding to a tale in a way that felt so special, which is why I'm an aspiring divorcee.

Yeah. Oh, I love that answer, especially because, I mean, growing up with my mom is divorced, my grandmother was divorced. It felt like when you got divorced as a woman, you were entering into a community of women. like a first wives club, like a wedding to a tale in a way that felt so special, which is why I'm an aspiring divorcee.

But yeah, that you found community in other unexpected places, I think is really nice. What advice would you give to a woman considering divorce?

But yeah, that you found community in other unexpected places, I think is really nice. What advice would you give to a woman considering divorce?

I mean, I want to joke and just say do it, but no. No, that's a good answer. That goes for us. I like it. I'm not quite so jaded. Okay, this is so corny, but this is also what I've been answering when people have asked me what sort of advice I would give myself at that time when I was really scared and kind of keeping parts of it a secret. But maybe I would just say you're stronger than you think.

I mean, I want to joke and just say do it, but no. No, that's a good answer. That goes for us. I like it. I'm not quite so jaded. Okay, this is so corny, but this is also what I've been answering when people have asked me what sort of advice I would give myself at that time when I was really scared and kind of keeping parts of it a secret. But maybe I would just say you're stronger than you think.

And she tells me, no, no, it's really all or nothing. You either like freeze the whole forehead or nothing. And I'm like, oh, well, that's just not going to work for me. I mean, these eyebrows talk more than this mouth.

And she tells me, no, no, it's really all or nothing. You either like freeze the whole forehead or nothing. And I'm like, oh, well, that's just not going to work for me. I mean, these eyebrows talk more than this mouth.

So whatever outcome you choose, you can handle it.

So whatever outcome you choose, you can handle it.

I love that. And maybe I needed it.

I love that. And maybe I needed it.

That's important. It's important to feel frail in these moments. But even with that feeling, I do believe you're stronger than you might feel.

That's important. It's important to feel frail in these moments. But even with that feeling, I do believe you're stronger than you might feel.

Oh my God, my hater heart is like growing three sizes right now.

Oh my God, my hater heart is like growing three sizes right now.

Hunter just bought The Artist's Way.

Hunter just bought The Artist's Way.

Okay, to close us out, a very kind of rapid fire. Are you a lover or hater of these famous divorces? Number one, Nicole Kidman and Tom Cruise.

Okay, to close us out, a very kind of rapid fire. Are you a lover or hater of these famous divorces? Number one, Nicole Kidman and Tom Cruise.

Lover, because I feel like it was really... A turning point for Nicole Kidman as a public figure. Yeah. You know, she was already on her way to being the woman we know and love, but that's just such an important part, I think, of her whole celebrity persona. And I love that. Totally.

Lover, because I feel like it was really... A turning point for Nicole Kidman as a public figure. Yeah. You know, she was already on her way to being the woman we know and love, but that's just such an important part, I think, of her whole celebrity persona. And I love that. Totally.

Lover. I'm really just revealing that I'm a lover of everything. But I'm just like, whatever she wants, basically.

Lover. I'm really just revealing that I'm a lover of everything. But I'm just like, whatever she wants, basically.

And, you know, speaking of lover, hater, Bennifer, their divorce.

And, you know, speaking of lover, hater, Bennifer, their divorce.

That one... Okay. I am a lover of it, but I'm going to say something hater-ish about it, which is that I've always thought that's a perfect example of how every generation gets the Elizabeth Taylor and Richard Burden they deserve. And this is the one we deserve. Wait, period.

That one... Okay. I am a lover of it, but I'm going to say something hater-ish about it, which is that I've always thought that's a perfect example of how every generation gets the Elizabeth Taylor and Richard Burden they deserve. And this is the one we deserve. Wait, period.

Oh, no, no, no, no, no.

Oh, no, no, no, no, no.

Shaking the table.

Shaking the table.

You've said something on this podcast here today.

You've said something on this podcast here today.

Respectfully, respectfully. Yeah.

Respectfully, respectfully. Yeah.

I just saw a photo of her walking a red carpet, I think at the Othello premiere, and her little like infinity Bennifer tattoo is visible like in her gown. And it's like, oh, falling on my knees.

I just saw a photo of her walking a red carpet, I think at the Othello premiere, and her little like infinity Bennifer tattoo is visible like in her gown. And it's like, oh, falling on my knees.

Oh, I mean, lover. That's iconic. That's a great example of of a place where I've always been like, I should have included more about Princess Diana, but it's so British and I feel like it's been so covered, but that was a really important divorce for my family personally. Like we were really, yeah, as Canadians, you know, we're like, were raised to hate the monarchy.

Oh, I mean, lover. That's iconic. That's a great example of of a place where I've always been like, I should have included more about Princess Diana, but it's so British and I feel like it's been so covered, but that was a really important divorce for my family personally. Like we were really, yeah, as Canadians, you know, we're like, were raised to hate the monarchy.

It would just be like stiff or they wouldn't go up at all? Let me tell you what my Shayla, I looked at her and I said, okay, well show me your surprised face. And she said... I was like, no, it was I silenced or was I silent? Like I said, oh, so I won't be getting Botox today. That's so crazy. And maybe not ever in the near future. That's called loving the game.

It would just be like stiff or they wouldn't go up at all? Let me tell you what my Shayla, I looked at her and I said, okay, well show me your surprised face. And she said... I was like, no, it was I silenced or was I silent? Like I said, oh, so I won't be getting Botox today. That's so crazy. And maybe not ever in the near future. That's called loving the game.

So it was really satisfying to watch her, you know, light a match. I love it. Okay. Haley, where can people follow you? I'm on Instagram still. And that's just my name. Perfect. And I think that's kind of it. That's the only thing I'm seeing right now.

So it was really satisfying to watch her, you know, light a match. I love it. Okay. Haley, where can people follow you? I'm on Instagram still. And that's just my name. Perfect. And I think that's kind of it. That's the only thing I'm seeing right now.

You're like, you don't need to find me anywhere else. Don't worry about that.

You're like, you don't need to find me anywhere else. Don't worry about that.

I'm around.

I'm around.

That's good enough. Haley, thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you.

That's good enough. Haley, thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you.

This assailant starts firing at him. And the suspect. He has been identified as Luigi Nicholas Mangione.

This assailant starts firing at him. And the suspect. He has been identified as Luigi Nicholas Mangione.

Zegler.

Zegler.

It feels like now that we've come to the end of the longest road, this movie has like been in my consciousness longer than Wicked. You know, that's how I feel. It's like, oh, I know, like I need to be done. I need to like not hear any more about this. A little bit of rundown of all the controversies. Of course, when Rachel was cast, people were like, well, Snow White has to be like white.

It feels like now that we've come to the end of the longest road, this movie has like been in my consciousness longer than Wicked. You know, that's how I feel. It's like, oh, I know, like I need to be done. I need to like not hear any more about this. A little bit of rundown of all the controversies. Of course, when Rachel was cast, people were like, well, Snow White has to be like white.

I'm like, well, she's a character. So really, she can be anything. Relax. Right.

I'm like, well, she's a character. So really, she can be anything. Relax. Right.

Yeah, you know, and then Peter Dinklage on a podcast spoke about how the seven dwarves are like pretty offensive and how it feels like very retrograde for them to continue to like, I don't know, perpetuate this narrative. And then Gal Gadot. What didn't you do? What? What hasn't she done? Like, where to even begin? First of all, the Imagine video. Second of all, like, the IDF of it all.

Yeah, you know, and then Peter Dinklage on a podcast spoke about how the seven dwarves are like pretty offensive and how it feels like very retrograde for them to continue to like, I don't know, perpetuate this narrative. And then Gal Gadot. What didn't you do? What? What hasn't she done? Like, where to even begin? First of all, the Imagine video. Second of all, like, the IDF of it all.

Oh, yes. Yes, that. Also, like, her not being able to act ass. Like, first and foremost, she is not an actress. She is just a tall person.

Oh, yes. Yes, that. Also, like, her not being able to act ass. Like, first and foremost, she is not an actress. She is just a tall person.

And then there was, like, rumors of tension between Rachel Zegler, who's openly pro-Palestine and, like, critical of Trump. Yeah. And then Rachel Zegler posted, I think on her Instagram story, something about, like, she hopes that Trump voters and Trump himself never know peace, and she had to apologize for that. Mm-hmm.

And then there was, like, rumors of tension between Rachel Zegler, who's openly pro-Palestine and, like, critical of Trump. Yeah. And then Rachel Zegler posted, I think on her Instagram story, something about, like, she hopes that Trump voters and Trump himself never know peace, and she had to apologize for that. Mm-hmm.

And then, also, during the early days of the press tour, she was talking about how, like, Snow White was, like, pretty retrograde, and the new Snow White is going to be, like, have a lot more agency, and...

And then, also, during the early days of the press tour, she was talking about how, like, Snow White was, like, pretty retrograde, and the new Snow White is going to be, like, have a lot more agency, and...

You know, it was like timed, unfortunately, so perfectly to like this Trump anti-DEI woke agenda that has kind of put her in the crosshairs of like a million different, honestly, mouth breathers.

You know, it was like timed, unfortunately, so perfectly to like this Trump anti-DEI woke agenda that has kind of put her in the crosshairs of like a million different, honestly, mouth breathers.

Like Trump saying, I got you, my guy. Like Trump really being like, oh, no, no, no, no. Cedric Diggory, that's my man. I ride for him actually is so crazy.

Like Trump saying, I got you, my guy. Like Trump really being like, oh, no, no, no, no. Cedric Diggory, that's my man. I ride for him actually is so crazy.

No, I don't need to see a Disney live action adaptation. If I didn't see Mufasa, girl, I'm not saying Snow White. I'm not sitting down in a theater to see Snow White. I don't want to do that. Also, Snow White has always been boring. Like, as you said, very boring. I ride for Belle. That was my Disney princess of choice. Oh, you're such a reader. Of course I am.

No, I don't need to see a Disney live action adaptation. If I didn't see Mufasa, girl, I'm not saying Snow White. I'm not sitting down in a theater to see Snow White. I don't want to do that. Also, Snow White has always been boring. Like, as you said, very boring. I ride for Belle. That was my Disney princess of choice. Oh, you're such a reader. Of course I am.

You still were like your English teacher's favorite. I love that about you. Of course. Miss Mislanka Boots. Shout out to her. Yeah, no. So it is never giving what it gave. And I'm tired of these. I'm tired of these live action adaptations. I think they're so boring. They're always a disappointment. Yeah. And if I didn't care about Snow White in cartoon form, why would I care about it now?

You still were like your English teacher's favorite. I love that about you. Of course. Miss Mislanka Boots. Shout out to her. Yeah, no. So it is never giving what it gave. And I'm tired of these. I'm tired of these live action adaptations. I think they're so boring. They're always a disappointment. Yeah. And if I didn't care about Snow White in cartoon form, why would I care about it now?

I'm boots on the ground. She was like, if you get Botox, you will not be able to move your eyebrows in the same way. And I said, oh, it's a wrap. I can't do that, actually. My livelihood is in these eyebrows.

I'm boots on the ground. She was like, if you get Botox, you will not be able to move your eyebrows in the same way. And I said, oh, it's a wrap. I can't do that, actually. My livelihood is in these eyebrows.

But it's a really like sad day when something that like genuinely annoys me, I have to defend on principle. Like it's not right that Rachel Zegler is like, you know, this lightning rod of a culture war that really does not involve her at all. And it's not right that she has to be in a movie with Gal Gadot. That should not befall anyone.

But it's a really like sad day when something that like genuinely annoys me, I have to defend on principle. Like it's not right that Rachel Zegler is like, you know, this lightning rod of a culture war that really does not involve her at all. And it's not right that she has to be in a movie with Gal Gadot. That should not befall anyone.

Honestly, that was the performance of her career is acting like she deserved it. Oh, you miss me down. You miss me so bad.

Honestly, that was the performance of her career is acting like she deserved it. Oh, you miss me down. You miss me so bad.

I am ready to lock in. I want the White Lotus finale to be really good. Yeah. This has such a slow start to the season. I'm like, okay, I'm seated. I'm buckled.

I am ready to lock in. I want the White Lotus finale to be really good. Yeah. This has such a slow start to the season. I'm like, okay, I'm seated. I'm buckled.

And speaking of future ex-wife, it is divorce season. It's divorce season. It's breakup season. And No Fault is such a good book about divorce. Oh my gosh. As someone who's read one other book about divorce, which was called Eat, Pray, Love.

And speaking of future ex-wife, it is divorce season. It's divorce season. It's breakup season. And No Fault is such a good book about divorce. Oh my gosh. As someone who's read one other book about divorce, which was called Eat, Pray, Love.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. No more artist's way. Removing it from the cart. Follow us on socials at Hunter H and at Peyton Dix.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. No more artist's way. Removing it from the cart. Follow us on socials at Hunter H and at Peyton Dix.

Many such cases. Thank you. And that resonates.

Many such cases. Thank you. And that resonates.

You can listen to bonus episodes of Let Me Say This exclusively and ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or an Apple podcast. Before you go, tell us a little bit about yourself by completing a short survey at wondery.com slash survey.

You can listen to bonus episodes of Let Me Say This exclusively and ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or an Apple podcast. Before you go, tell us a little bit about yourself by completing a short survey at wondery.com slash survey.

For Wondery, Eliza Mills is the development producer. Our managing producer is Taylor Sniffen. Nick Ryan is our senior managing producer. Our producer is Kate Young. Our senior producers are Candice Manriquez-Wren and Brian Taylor White. Executive producers are Dave Easton, Erin O'Flaherty, and Marshall Louis.

For Wondery, Eliza Mills is the development producer. Our managing producer is Taylor Sniffen. Nick Ryan is our senior managing producer. Our producer is Kate Young. Our senior producers are Candice Manriquez-Wren and Brian Taylor White. Executive producers are Dave Easton, Erin O'Flaherty, and Marshall Louis.

Yes. Yes. My dermatologist being like, those eyebrows, they don't resonate. Like that's going to be gone. Listen, I love her and I trust her. And I'm happy that she was honest with me and said, you're not going to be happy. Yeah. Yeah. And I'll buy you that. I know. Oh my gosh. Well, did you go to Hawaii so we could talk about the White Lotus today? Because that's what's on the agenda. Yeah.

Yes. Yes. My dermatologist being like, those eyebrows, they don't resonate. Like that's going to be gone. Listen, I love her and I trust her. And I'm happy that she was honest with me and said, you're not going to be happy. Yeah. Yeah. And I'll buy you that. I know. Oh my gosh. Well, did you go to Hawaii so we could talk about the White Lotus today? Because that's what's on the agenda. Yeah.

We're talking about the White Lotus, Snow White, the live action adaptation. And we're joined by the writer Hayley Milotic to talk about our favorite topic, divorce. Thank God. Yeah. We need this. So let me just say this. Let me say this. We're looking for a home for your worst opinions.

We're talking about the White Lotus, Snow White, the live action adaptation. And we're joined by the writer Hayley Milotic to talk about our favorite topic, divorce. Thank God. Yeah. We need this. So let me just say this. Let me say this. We're looking for a home for your worst opinions.

Okay, I know you just got back from Hawaii. I'm wondering what you saw. I'm wondering what went down there. Were you at the White Lotus where there's incest and a mean triplet of friends and a lorazepam mom and a dad who is constantly on the brink and a missing gun?

Okay, I know you just got back from Hawaii. I'm wondering what you saw. I'm wondering what went down there. Were you at the White Lotus where there's incest and a mean triplet of friends and a lorazepam mom and a dad who is constantly on the brink and a missing gun?

I know. I'm like, finally, a plot. It has been... Like episode, I think six or seven was the most recent episode. Episode six. Six. We finally made it to like some real drama after like a very sleeper, slow start to the series. Now we're like, I'm going to say locked in. And a lot of people- Door's locked. The top line is the brothers, the brothers who kissed and maybe, I don't know if I can say-

I know. I'm like, finally, a plot. It has been... Like episode, I think six or seven was the most recent episode. Episode six. Six. We finally made it to like some real drama after like a very sleeper, slow start to the series. Now we're like, I'm going to say locked in. And a lot of people- Door's locked. The top line is the brothers, the brothers who kissed and maybe, I don't know if I can say-

jerked each other off? Off? You can say that. Do you want to say that? That's a different question. I don't want to say it, but actually let me say this. People who are getting mad about it, this is HBO. Girl, it's not TV, it's HBO. If you are like clutching your pearls, being like, this is too much for me, take your ass back to Disney Channel. This is for adults.

jerked each other off? Off? You can say that. Do you want to say that? That's a different question. I don't want to say it, but actually let me say this. People who are getting mad about it, this is HBO. Girl, it's not TV, it's HBO. If you are like clutching your pearls, being like, this is too much for me, take your ass back to Disney Channel. This is for adults.

We can see that this is wrong and also see that it's making for like dramatic television. Yeah, we watch Game of Thrones, okay?

We can see that this is wrong and also see that it's making for like dramatic television. Yeah, we watch Game of Thrones, okay?

Yeah, I'm going to say I'm grossed out by it. I'm grossed out by it.

Yeah, I'm going to say I'm grossed out by it. I'm grossed out by it.

Oh, really?

Oh, really?

No, I think he's really cute, I think. Oh, like you're attracted to him? No, no. I think he seems so sweet and innocent. I'm way more interested in him as a character than I am his older brother who I'm like, it's giving loser. It's giving loser. It's giving like- Oh, I mean big loser. Thinks about protein and like creatine. I don't want to know what creatine is.

No, I think he's really cute, I think. Oh, like you're attracted to him? No, no. I think he seems so sweet and innocent. I'm way more interested in him as a character than I am his older brother who I'm like, it's giving loser. It's giving loser. It's giving like- Oh, I mean big loser. Thinks about protein and like creatine. I don't want to know what creatine is.

And that's kind of what he's giving me.

And that's kind of what he's giving me.

We cannot have one more mention of The Artist's Way on this podcast ever. We need to, we need to like, it actually does stop right now. I'm going to, I'm not calling you out. I'm calling you in.

We cannot have one more mention of The Artist's Way on this podcast ever. We need to, we need to like, it actually does stop right now. I'm going to, I'm not calling you out. I'm calling you in.

Yeah. Leslie Bibb. Leslie.

Yeah. Leslie Bibb. Leslie.

No, I mean, it is so in my cue zone of like a Real Housewives trip, like a Real Housewives vacation where it's like Luann is fucking a pirate and then Sonia also fucks him later in the episode or like later on the trip. It's that and it's also kind of reheating the nachos of season one dynamic that was between the two teenage girls. Yes, yes.

No, I mean, it is so in my cue zone of like a Real Housewives trip, like a Real Housewives vacation where it's like Luann is fucking a pirate and then Sonia also fucks him later in the episode or like later on the trip. It's that and it's also kind of reheating the nachos of season one dynamic that was between the two teenage girls. Yes, yes.

Where the one friend, I think her name is Brittany O'Grady, that she likes like the hotel worker and then Sidney Sweeney clocks that and tries to go after him herself. Like that I think is a perfect White Lotus dynamic that is kind of being like in a different way reimagined here. They're all grown up. Yeah, no, I love Jealousy Between White Women where it's like…

Where the one friend, I think her name is Brittany O'Grady, that she likes like the hotel worker and then Sidney Sweeney clocks that and tries to go after him herself. Like that I think is a perfect White Lotus dynamic that is kind of being like in a different way reimagined here. They're all grown up. Yeah, no, I love Jealousy Between White Women where it's like…

Where, like, Michelle Monaghan is like, by the end of the day, I am the celebrity. Like, her even being the Barbra Streisand memoir, I'm like, girl, who do you think you are?

Where, like, Michelle Monaghan is like, by the end of the day, I am the celebrity. Like, her even being the Barbra Streisand memoir, I'm like, girl, who do you think you are?

I want to say, too, though, I do really identify with Leslie Bibb in the previous episode. Whenever, like, Carrie Coon is like, we need to invite the boys back to the villa. And Leslie was like, no, we don't actually. Shouldn't we just go home? It's kind of weird. should we just get in our pajamas right now?

I want to say, too, though, I do really identify with Leslie Bibb in the previous episode. Whenever, like, Carrie Coon is like, we need to invite the boys back to the villa. And Leslie was like, no, we don't actually. Shouldn't we just go home? It's kind of weird. should we just get in our pajamas right now?

And then she literally puts on her pajamas and she's watching, being like, I'm just here to make sure my girls stay safe. I've been her on more than one occasion. But I do have to talk about my sleeper favorite moment of this entire season. And actually what has justified the very slow start, not justified it, but has made it more bearable, I guess, is little Piper being like, there was no thesis.

And then she literally puts on her pajamas and she's watching, being like, I'm just here to make sure my girls stay safe. I've been her on more than one occasion. But I do have to talk about my sleeper favorite moment of this entire season. And actually what has justified the very slow start, not justified it, but has made it more bearable, I guess, is little Piper being like, there was no thesis.

Yeah. Loved it. Did you? That was the big twist of the season for me. Both that her parents, like, they weren't that mad about there not being a thesis, but that she thought she could, like, get away with it. Because it seemed very obvious from the beginning.

Yeah. Loved it. Did you? That was the big twist of the season for me. Both that her parents, like, they weren't that mad about there not being a thesis, but that she thought she could, like, get away with it. Because it seemed very obvious from the beginning.

Lucius Malfoy. Okay. I love him. But one time when I was getting my hair done, when I was like literally 11 years old, I was reading Harry Potter in the hair salon. And like another stylist was like, what book is that? And I was like, it's Harry Potter. And she's like, ooh. And I said, Lucius Malfoy Luscious.

Lucius Malfoy. Okay. I love him. But one time when I was getting my hair done, when I was like literally 11 years old, I was reading Harry Potter in the hair salon. And like another stylist was like, what book is that? And I was like, it's Harry Potter. And she's like, ooh. And I said, Lucius Malfoy Luscious.

And she like clowned me about it for like the rest of the hair appointment, which, you know, took a long time. And now whenever I think about Luscious Malfoy, I'm like, oh my God, Lucius.

And she like clowned me about it for like the rest of the hair appointment, which, you know, took a long time. And now whenever I think about Luscious Malfoy, I'm like, oh my God, Lucius.

No, he's got the locks. Like that's a man.

No, he's got the locks. Like that's a man.

But also knowing his family, knowing his money troubles, he's earned all those lines. Every single one. Every single one.

But also knowing his family, knowing his money troubles, he's earned all those lines. Every single one. Every single one.

No, they're going all the way. Like, Iowa put money down on it. There's nothing, nothing can come between them in a way that, yeah, I think is, like, pretty sweet. The only thing, and I've said this from the beginning, I think that, like, this season as a whole relies too much on, like, the why they are on this trip. Because it's like, well, why are you on vacation? You're rich.

No, they're going all the way. Like, Iowa put money down on it. There's nothing, nothing can come between them in a way that, yeah, I think is, like, pretty sweet. The only thing, and I've said this from the beginning, I think that, like, this season as a whole relies too much on, like, the why they are on this trip. Because it's like, well, why are you on vacation? You're rich.

Duh, you're on vacation. Like, it doesn't have to be, like, season one just, like, did not have that emphasis on what has brought them to this hotel.

Duh, you're on vacation. Like, it doesn't have to be, like, season one just, like, did not have that emphasis on what has brought them to this hotel.

And I think season three relying on that too much is like to the detriment. And then the other thing too is that Armand was such a central player in season one, like weaving in and out of every single character, every single storyline on the show. And now that lack of like one central POV, I'm watching the show and I'm like, who is number one on the call sheet?

And I think season three relying on that too much is like to the detriment. And then the other thing too is that Armand was such a central player in season one, like weaving in and out of every single character, every single storyline on the show. And now that lack of like one central POV, I'm watching the show and I'm like, who is number one on the call sheet?

Like who, except for Parker Posey, number one in my heart. Of course, that's my sister. That's my girl. Clearly. Absolutely. But I'm like, who is putting a bow on this and tying it all together? Yeah. Because it really does feel super like disparate, you know, all supporting characters to what ultimate aim.

Like who, except for Parker Posey, number one in my heart. Of course, that's my sister. That's my girl. Clearly. Absolutely. But I'm like, who is putting a bow on this and tying it all together? Yeah. Because it really does feel super like disparate, you know, all supporting characters to what ultimate aim.

She thought they were in Taiwan. Yeah. And listen, and I know, I went to high school with her daughter. Like, that type of Parker Posey character, like, is very familiar.

She thought they were in Taiwan. Yeah. And listen, and I know, I went to high school with her daughter. Like, that type of Parker Posey character, like, is very familiar.

I was like, oh, my God. No, I'm not a nepo baby. I'm the only one on the podcast who's not, actually. But that dynamic is so familiar to me where you're, like, talking to someone and then you, like, meet their mom and you're like, oh, now you make a lot of sense, actually. Now I understand. Mm-hmm. I think people get that when they meet Alicia.

I was like, oh, my God. No, I'm not a nepo baby. I'm the only one on the podcast who's not, actually. But that dynamic is so familiar to me where you're, like, talking to someone and then you, like, meet their mom and you're like, oh, now you make a lot of sense, actually. Now I understand. Mm-hmm. I think people get that when they meet Alicia.

Did that move a needle for you sexually? I'm happy that she got her back blown, but Glenda's, like, not doing it for me this season. She was so, so, so strong in season one. And this is, like, I'm happy to see her, like, again, like, get between these sheets, but eh.

Did that move a needle for you sexually? I'm happy that she got her back blown, but Glenda's, like, not doing it for me this season. She was so, so, so strong in season one. And this is, like, I'm happy to see her, like, again, like, get between these sheets, but eh.

I'd rather just, like, her not be subjected to, like, Gary slash Greg. I'm like, girl, what is going to happen on that man's murder board? He is a creep. Yeah. My goodness.

I'd rather just, like, her not be subjected to, like, Gary slash Greg. I'm like, girl, what is going to happen on that man's murder board? He is a creep. Yeah. My goodness.

You know you need to find yourself a Walton Goggins.

You know you need to find yourself a Walton Goggins.

No, I didn't. I brought my notepad with all the material I've collected over the years about your taste in men. Oh, that's not your man? That's not your man.

No, I didn't. I brought my notepad with all the material I've collected over the years about your taste in men. Oh, that's not your man? That's not your man.

There was one shop a couple episodes ago that was like Patrick Schwarzenegger's like, you know, super toned, chiseled, tan body. And then like immediately cut to Walton Goggins like bald spot. And it's like wood. Absolutely. Wood and. My man. And want to and wish I could. The like, yeah, the contrast between like engineered for desire.

There was one shop a couple episodes ago that was like Patrick Schwarzenegger's like, you know, super toned, chiseled, tan body. And then like immediately cut to Walton Goggins like bald spot. And it's like wood. Absolutely. Wood and. My man. And want to and wish I could. The like, yeah, the contrast between like engineered for desire.

And yet I find it so like, I don't know, like unsexy and Walton Goggins. I'm like, oh, those veneers. His like, oh, no, I'm like.

Yeah, not someone's hurt him. Sorry. And you said I'll actually be next in line. Okay, finale predictions. What do you think?

As someone who was rich with board bucks, the like campus dining dollars, it was hard when I ran out of board bucks. And I was like, I can't get my little like stir fry from the Macs. Yeah, that's my closest comp. Who are you giving the gun to? I will give the gun maybe to Piper. Maybe to Piper to be like her annoying brother. She's like, I'm actually done with you guys.

And she's like, I'm going to kill my whole family because I actually want to stay. Like that's the only way I don't have to go home is if the rest of you guys go to heaven. She kills her whole family then is like, sorry about that. All right, let's lock in. Yeah, she's like, nah, I'm ready to meditate actually. Like she freaks out. I just got that out of my system. I'm good.

So it interrupts her meditation. Oh, my God. I love a delusional white girl. Okay, well, I guess I'll see you here. The only thing I don't want to happen is the monkey thing. Because that's like... Me too. Me too.

Wait, wait, wait, wait. She shook the table. Your mom is Scarlett Johansson. Your mom said, actually, I don't want to be identified as being in this time and place with you. I eat the hike. Oh, I love it.

So maybe there's... I know, but the girls were locked in saying a monkey was going to get the gun and just shoot people indiscriminately. And I thought they were so smart for it, too. Come on, Emerson College graduate. Shut up.

This assailant starts firing at him. And the suspect. He has been identified as Luigi Nicholas Mangione.

He has been identified as Luigi Nicholas Mangione.

It is really breakup season, I think.

Yeah, yeah, just a little bit. And there's no one better to talk about breakups with than the writer Hayley Milotic, who just wrote an amazing memoir about her divorce. I read the book before and during my breakup, and I was like, oh my gosh, this is shaking the table for me emotionally. I think me reading this book was like Peyton, you listening to any Glennon Doyle podcast.

That's why her name is Alicia Keys.

Yeah, clocked. Mm-hmm. Not too much. Haley is a writer and editor living in Montreal, and her first book, No Fault, A Memoir of Romance and Divorce, is out now. Haley, welcome.

Because listen, she's songs in a minor, like Diary of.

Thank you so much for having me. Thank you for being here.

Yes. We have a question that we ask everyone. Do you identify as a lover or a hater? I'm a lover.

I wish I could be a hater, but I know myself too well. Okay.

No. I feel like I want to be a hater because the haters I know have much better and higher standards than I do. And like the lover in me is like a way to, you know, like, oh, but they have so much potential and that's no good. So we go together because that's what I feel about Hunter.

Oh, I'm a lover of divorce. Thank God. I don't like it. You know, it's not nice. It's not fun. but I'm in love with it at the same time.

Yeah, yeah, no, we are famously a proto-divorce podcast. So I wanna start with more questions about you. Tell me about your separation and like the decision to write about it.

Yes, okay. My separation happened a really long time ago. Now it does feel still so recent because of course I've had to kind of stay in that time period as I was writing the book. And now talking about the butt. But yes, my, my story, I think like all couples stories is very individual. It's certainly not representative of what I think is average for a lot of people.

We were together for a very long time. We got together quite young. We lived together for many years and then decided to separate after one year of marriage and So all of those things I've noticed that when I speak to other people about their divorce, a lot of those elements are common, even if they're not necessarily similar.

And that was something that I think really was the starting point for why I wanted to write this book about divorce. Like in the book I write, it's this experience that's so common and yet it can never be ordinary. Yeah. I just think that is endlessly fascinating.

Oh my gosh, you look so good. Peyton, where have you been?

And then tell us about like writing about that and how your own separation became kind of like a launching point to talk about divorce culturally in media and entertainment.

I'm recommending divorce. That resonates. And that didn't end up happening. But my brilliant friend, the editor, Dana Tortorici, suggested maybe I just write that anyways for her at M plus one. And in the course of working with her, I actually started thinking about it seriously. I have a tendency to, you know, you've read the book, you've seen I can be a little opaque.

No, actually, I'm stealing that. I'm using it. Yeah. I'm like, yeah, will be. That's my new many such cases. That's my new many such cases.

I prefer a bit of a punchline over directness. But that was when I really started to realize that this was my subject and this was my topic and my genre. And soon after that, that's when I really went fully into the book itself. Yeah.

I knew a lot about divorce, probably too much because my mother is a divorce mediator. What a specific job.

Oh, my God.

I will introduce you.

She would love that. Yeah, she was trained as a teacher, actually. She went to school for education and then got certified as a family mediator because she was always interested in families and relationships and divorce. And I read in the book, my grandmother was divorced twice. So she also had a very... involved interest in the topic.

And so there were always divorcing couples or families that had already been through a divorce in our basement, working out their parenting plans or their separation agreements. And so it definitely didn't seem normal. Even when I was a kid, I understood that it was unusual, but it certainly seemed very present. There were enough people coming through that it made it obvious to me that

It didn't resonate.

that, you know, somehow this was this thing that people talked about as though it was so awful and should be avoided. And yet we were all in some way participating in it.

One thing that I love about No Fault so much, and I told you this before, is that how it is on like dual tracks of memoir and research, I think is so powerful and well done. Can you tell us some of the things that you learned about divorce? as a concept and as a piece of our present day legal system, I guess, that were really fascinating to you?

Well, let me tell you a little story about me being addicted to the job. Because tell me why. I was like, okay, I'm 30 years old. I see my face a decent amount doing this podcast. Dare I break the fourth wall? Okay. In every Zoom, all of that. And I'm like, I think I have a giant forehead. Not news to anyone here. I think I need like a touch of Botox. Early lines.

Yes. Thank you so much. I'm so glad you thought that. Yeah, I definitely started doing the research because I was in over my head. It's such a huge topic that I didn't even know where to start. And even now, I still think I could have done more or I could have found other ways into the topic, but I knew I wanted to focus on North America.

And I knew that I wanted to focus on the concept of what's most commonly called no fault divorce, because I felt like that represented a before and after for our understanding of it. You know, in the time when you really had to not make up a story, but at least tell a story that a judge would believe in order to grant you a divorce.

the influence that that had on the way people saw their relationships and their families was so massive that it seemed like there was no way that you could just flip a switch in the year 1970, which was when no-fault divorce was first introduced in America, and everybody would let that go.

To me, what I really wanted to explore was whether or not we sort of took the concept of fault out of courtrooms and into our conversations, because I do think the tendency is always To wonder during a breakup, whose fault is it or who wanted it, who asked for it versus who was broken up with. And to me, that really reflects that same idea of who's at fault.

And so a lot of the research was really fascinating. I did think it was so funny. when I learned that Vatican City doesn't allow any divorce legally, just because that's so cute that they put that into writing. Just in case, just in case. Yeah, so filing for divorce when they're visiting Vatican City for the afternoon.

But then also, you know, these really odd pockets of history where something that I love talking about is in the time where you had to have very specific requirements for what would allow you to get a divorce. you would have couples just repeating the exact same stories to judges. And so the divorce rates were the same, but perjury rates were going up because you're fucking with us basically.

But that was, what else did they do? Except one of them had to be like, fine, I cheated, you know, in order to get the divorce. Yeah. And then I really, really loved learning about, I mean, I didn't love it because a lot of it's really bleak, but the history of how marriage and the family are used for political ends, both, For like neoliberal and neoconservative movements.

I thought that was really fascinating. And it sort of made a lot of the things that I think I'd always felt or sensed much more easily observed in real life. I have a question for you.

Well, you know, it's so funny because I'm still kind of in my head compiling a list of divorce books or movies. Endless list. Endless list.

It'll be going for my entire life now. Yeah, I don't know if either of you have seen Hester Street, but I just watched it this weekend. It's on Criterion as part of the Joan Mifflin Silver collection.

And I didn't know that that's an amazing divorce movie, you know? And so I was like, oh, you know, next time I write a big sweeping memoir and cultural critique of divorce, I have to remember to include that. But I also, you know, I just... I just love women. And I love... Same.

To a yes fault. And so like, you know, I always talk about women like Elizabeth Hardwick or Grace Paley. Definitely, I think I gravitate towards mid-century writers, actually, or like mid-century to like the late 70s. Ellen Willis is another one. And then, you know, I'm spoiled for options on divorce writing. And at the present moment, there are so many of my peers who are also writing about it.

Like they don't bother me now, but like they're going to bother me like in like three or four years. So I go to my dermatologist who I've been seeing for like, geez, like nine years. Like since I moved to New York. Oh, wow. And she's like kind of make some expressions for me. And I was like, I just want like these like few lines up here kind of like smoothed out, dulled, whatever.

I also love how much you love Waiting to Exhale, which I think in your book you called your first favorite movie about divorce that begins with a car on fire. Yes. And the second favorite is 20th Century Woman, which is both of them are classics in my home.

No, you, you already know.

Yeah. I mean, definitely at the time I felt a little bit alone in it because I was, I think the 30 when I separated, which is relatively young, like the JoJo's, I was basically like a child bride, even though I'm a fully grown woman and that's a very common age. But at the time I was living in New York and I was working in media, so it was already a little bit unusual.

So that felt a little bit lonely. And I remember one specific instance where I went on a date with somebody who was a little bit older than me, but not much, like maybe five years or so. And he had been divorced and I got so excited. I was like, oh my God, me too. You know, and I really just want to talk about it.

And he was like, you are the only woman that's ever responded this way to the fact of being divorced. I don't think he liked it. So that was a learning curve, but something I did realize and I hope comes through in the book, which is of course focused on divorce because that's, so much tied up in like law and the culture.

But I do think there are so many types of breakups that have the same power and impact that a divorce can on a life, but they aren't given the same almost courtesy or respect because they don't have that label. And once I realized that, that changed how I saw the community because there were so many people who did talk to me about

You know, living in a home you once shared by yourself for the first time or losing the connection to your significant other's family or things like that, which is they hadn't been divorced, didn't mean that their experience wasn't so similar to mine.

Yeah. Oh, I love that answer, especially because, I mean, growing up with my mom is divorced, my grandmother was divorced. It felt like when you got divorced as a woman, you were entering into a community of women. like a first wives club, like a wedding to a tale in a way that felt so special, which is why I'm an aspiring divorcee.

But yeah, that you found community in other unexpected places, I think is really nice. What advice would you give to a woman considering divorce?

I mean, I want to joke and just say do it, but no. No, that's a good answer. That goes for us. I like it. I'm not quite so jaded. Okay, this is so corny, but this is also what I've been answering when people have asked me what sort of advice I would give myself at that time when I was really scared and kind of keeping parts of it a secret. But maybe I would just say you're stronger than you think.

And she tells me, no, no, it's really all or nothing. You either like freeze the whole forehead or nothing. And I'm like, oh, well, that's just not going to work for me. I mean, these eyebrows talk more than this mouth.

So whatever outcome you choose, you can handle it.

I love that. And maybe I needed it.

That's important. It's important to feel frail in these moments. But even with that feeling, I do believe you're stronger than you might feel.

Oh my God, my hater heart is like growing three sizes right now.

Hunter just bought The Artist's Way.

Okay, to close us out, a very kind of rapid fire. Are you a lover or hater of these famous divorces? Number one, Nicole Kidman and Tom Cruise.

Lover, because I feel like it was really... A turning point for Nicole Kidman as a public figure. Yeah. You know, she was already on her way to being the woman we know and love, but that's just such an important part, I think, of her whole celebrity persona. And I love that. Totally.

Lover. I'm really just revealing that I'm a lover of everything. But I'm just like, whatever she wants, basically.

And, you know, speaking of lover, hater, Bennifer, their divorce.

That one... Okay. I am a lover of it, but I'm going to say something hater-ish about it, which is that I've always thought that's a perfect example of how every generation gets the Elizabeth Taylor and Richard Burden they deserve. And this is the one we deserve. Wait, period.

Oh, no, no, no, no, no.

Shaking the table.

You've said something on this podcast here today.

Respectfully, respectfully. Yeah.

I just saw a photo of her walking a red carpet, I think at the Othello premiere, and her little like infinity Bennifer tattoo is visible like in her gown. And it's like, oh, falling on my knees.

Oh, I mean, lover. That's iconic. That's a great example of of a place where I've always been like, I should have included more about Princess Diana, but it's so British and I feel like it's been so covered, but that was a really important divorce for my family personally. Like we were really, yeah, as Canadians, you know, we're like, were raised to hate the monarchy.

It would just be like stiff or they wouldn't go up at all? Let me tell you what my Shayla, I looked at her and I said, okay, well show me your surprised face. And she said... I was like, no, it was I silenced or was I silent? Like I said, oh, so I won't be getting Botox today. That's so crazy. And maybe not ever in the near future. That's called loving the game.

So it was really satisfying to watch her, you know, light a match. I love it. Okay. Haley, where can people follow you? I'm on Instagram still. And that's just my name. Perfect. And I think that's kind of it. That's the only thing I'm seeing right now.

You're like, you don't need to find me anywhere else. Don't worry about that.

I'm around.

That's good enough. Haley, thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you.

This assailant starts firing at him. And the suspect. He has been identified as Luigi Nicholas Mangione.

Zegler.

It feels like now that we've come to the end of the longest road, this movie has like been in my consciousness longer than Wicked. You know, that's how I feel. It's like, oh, I know, like I need to be done. I need to like not hear any more about this. A little bit of rundown of all the controversies. Of course, when Rachel was cast, people were like, well, Snow White has to be like white.

I'm like, well, she's a character. So really, she can be anything. Relax. Right.

Yeah, you know, and then Peter Dinklage on a podcast spoke about how the seven dwarves are like pretty offensive and how it feels like very retrograde for them to continue to like, I don't know, perpetuate this narrative. And then Gal Gadot. What didn't you do? What? What hasn't she done? Like, where to even begin? First of all, the Imagine video. Second of all, like, the IDF of it all.

Oh, yes. Yes, that. Also, like, her not being able to act ass. Like, first and foremost, she is not an actress. She is just a tall person.

And then there was, like, rumors of tension between Rachel Zegler, who's openly pro-Palestine and, like, critical of Trump. Yeah. And then Rachel Zegler posted, I think on her Instagram story, something about, like, she hopes that Trump voters and Trump himself never know peace, and she had to apologize for that. Mm-hmm.

And then, also, during the early days of the press tour, she was talking about how, like, Snow White was, like, pretty retrograde, and the new Snow White is going to be, like, have a lot more agency, and...

You know, it was like timed, unfortunately, so perfectly to like this Trump anti-DEI woke agenda that has kind of put her in the crosshairs of like a million different, honestly, mouth breathers.

Like Trump saying, I got you, my guy. Like Trump really being like, oh, no, no, no, no. Cedric Diggory, that's my man. I ride for him actually is so crazy.

No, I don't need to see a Disney live action adaptation. If I didn't see Mufasa, girl, I'm not saying Snow White. I'm not sitting down in a theater to see Snow White. I don't want to do that. Also, Snow White has always been boring. Like, as you said, very boring. I ride for Belle. That was my Disney princess of choice. Oh, you're such a reader. Of course I am.

You still were like your English teacher's favorite. I love that about you. Of course. Miss Mislanka Boots. Shout out to her. Yeah, no. So it is never giving what it gave. And I'm tired of these. I'm tired of these live action adaptations. I think they're so boring. They're always a disappointment. Yeah. And if I didn't care about Snow White in cartoon form, why would I care about it now?

I'm boots on the ground. She was like, if you get Botox, you will not be able to move your eyebrows in the same way. And I said, oh, it's a wrap. I can't do that, actually. My livelihood is in these eyebrows.

But it's a really like sad day when something that like genuinely annoys me, I have to defend on principle. Like it's not right that Rachel Zegler is like, you know, this lightning rod of a culture war that really does not involve her at all. And it's not right that she has to be in a movie with Gal Gadot. That should not befall anyone.

Honestly, that was the performance of her career is acting like she deserved it. Oh, you miss me down. You miss me so bad.

I am ready to lock in. I want the White Lotus finale to be really good. Yeah. This has such a slow start to the season. I'm like, okay, I'm seated. I'm buckled.

And speaking of future ex-wife, it is divorce season. It's divorce season. It's breakup season. And No Fault is such a good book about divorce. Oh my gosh. As someone who's read one other book about divorce, which was called Eat, Pray, Love.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. No more artist's way. Removing it from the cart. Follow us on socials at Hunter H and at Peyton Dix.

Many such cases. Thank you. And that resonates.

You can listen to bonus episodes of Let Me Say This exclusively and ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or an Apple podcast. Before you go, tell us a little bit about yourself by completing a short survey at wondery.com slash survey.

For Wondery, Eliza Mills is the development producer. Our managing producer is Taylor Sniffen. Nick Ryan is our senior managing producer. Our producer is Kate Young. Our senior producers are Candice Manriquez-Wren and Brian Taylor White. Executive producers are Dave Easton, Erin O'Flaherty, and Marshall Louis.

Yes. Yes. My dermatologist being like, those eyebrows, they don't resonate. Like that's going to be gone. Listen, I love her and I trust her. And I'm happy that she was honest with me and said, you're not going to be happy. Yeah. Yeah. And I'll buy you that. I know. Oh my gosh. Well, did you go to Hawaii so we could talk about the White Lotus today? Because that's what's on the agenda. Yeah.

We're talking about the White Lotus, Snow White, the live action adaptation. And we're joined by the writer Hayley Milotic to talk about our favorite topic, divorce. Thank God. Yeah. We need this. So let me just say this. Let me say this. We're looking for a home for your worst opinions.

Okay, I know you just got back from Hawaii. I'm wondering what you saw. I'm wondering what went down there. Were you at the White Lotus where there's incest and a mean triplet of friends and a lorazepam mom and a dad who is constantly on the brink and a missing gun?

I know. I'm like, finally, a plot. It has been... Like episode, I think six or seven was the most recent episode. Episode six. Six. We finally made it to like some real drama after like a very sleeper, slow start to the series. Now we're like, I'm going to say locked in. And a lot of people- Door's locked. The top line is the brothers, the brothers who kissed and maybe, I don't know if I can say-

jerked each other off? Off? You can say that. Do you want to say that? That's a different question. I don't want to say it, but actually let me say this. People who are getting mad about it, this is HBO. Girl, it's not TV, it's HBO. If you are like clutching your pearls, being like, this is too much for me, take your ass back to Disney Channel. This is for adults.

We can see that this is wrong and also see that it's making for like dramatic television. Yeah, we watch Game of Thrones, okay?

Yeah, I'm going to say I'm grossed out by it. I'm grossed out by it.

Oh, really?

No, I think he's really cute, I think. Oh, like you're attracted to him? No, no. I think he seems so sweet and innocent. I'm way more interested in him as a character than I am his older brother who I'm like, it's giving loser. It's giving loser. It's giving like- Oh, I mean big loser. Thinks about protein and like creatine. I don't want to know what creatine is.

And that's kind of what he's giving me.

We cannot have one more mention of The Artist's Way on this podcast ever. We need to, we need to like, it actually does stop right now. I'm going to, I'm not calling you out. I'm calling you in.

Yeah. Leslie Bibb. Leslie.

No, I mean, it is so in my cue zone of like a Real Housewives trip, like a Real Housewives vacation where it's like Luann is fucking a pirate and then Sonia also fucks him later in the episode or like later on the trip. It's that and it's also kind of reheating the nachos of season one dynamic that was between the two teenage girls. Yes, yes.

Where the one friend, I think her name is Brittany O'Grady, that she likes like the hotel worker and then Sidney Sweeney clocks that and tries to go after him herself. Like that I think is a perfect White Lotus dynamic that is kind of being like in a different way reimagined here. They're all grown up. Yeah, no, I love Jealousy Between White Women where it's like…

Where, like, Michelle Monaghan is like, by the end of the day, I am the celebrity. Like, her even being the Barbra Streisand memoir, I'm like, girl, who do you think you are?

I want to say, too, though, I do really identify with Leslie Bibb in the previous episode. Whenever, like, Carrie Coon is like, we need to invite the boys back to the villa. And Leslie was like, no, we don't actually. Shouldn't we just go home? It's kind of weird. should we just get in our pajamas right now?

And then she literally puts on her pajamas and she's watching, being like, I'm just here to make sure my girls stay safe. I've been her on more than one occasion. But I do have to talk about my sleeper favorite moment of this entire season. And actually what has justified the very slow start, not justified it, but has made it more bearable, I guess, is little Piper being like, there was no thesis.

Yeah. Loved it. Did you? That was the big twist of the season for me. Both that her parents, like, they weren't that mad about there not being a thesis, but that she thought she could, like, get away with it. Because it seemed very obvious from the beginning.

Lucius Malfoy. Okay. I love him. But one time when I was getting my hair done, when I was like literally 11 years old, I was reading Harry Potter in the hair salon. And like another stylist was like, what book is that? And I was like, it's Harry Potter. And she's like, ooh. And I said, Lucius Malfoy Luscious.

And she like clowned me about it for like the rest of the hair appointment, which, you know, took a long time. And now whenever I think about Luscious Malfoy, I'm like, oh my God, Lucius.

No, he's got the locks. Like that's a man.

But also knowing his family, knowing his money troubles, he's earned all those lines. Every single one. Every single one.

No, they're going all the way. Like, Iowa put money down on it. There's nothing, nothing can come between them in a way that, yeah, I think is, like, pretty sweet. The only thing, and I've said this from the beginning, I think that, like, this season as a whole relies too much on, like, the why they are on this trip. Because it's like, well, why are you on vacation? You're rich.

Duh, you're on vacation. Like, it doesn't have to be, like, season one just, like, did not have that emphasis on what has brought them to this hotel.

And I think season three relying on that too much is like to the detriment. And then the other thing too is that Armand was such a central player in season one, like weaving in and out of every single character, every single storyline on the show. And now that lack of like one central POV, I'm watching the show and I'm like, who is number one on the call sheet?

Like who, except for Parker Posey, number one in my heart. Of course, that's my sister. That's my girl. Clearly. Absolutely. But I'm like, who is putting a bow on this and tying it all together? Yeah. Because it really does feel super like disparate, you know, all supporting characters to what ultimate aim.

She thought they were in Taiwan. Yeah. And listen, and I know, I went to high school with her daughter. Like, that type of Parker Posey character, like, is very familiar.

I was like, oh, my God. No, I'm not a nepo baby. I'm the only one on the podcast who's not, actually. But that dynamic is so familiar to me where you're, like, talking to someone and then you, like, meet their mom and you're like, oh, now you make a lot of sense, actually. Now I understand. Mm-hmm. I think people get that when they meet Alicia.

Did that move a needle for you sexually? I'm happy that she got her back blown, but Glenda's, like, not doing it for me this season. She was so, so, so strong in season one. And this is, like, I'm happy to see her, like, again, like, get between these sheets, but eh.

I'd rather just, like, her not be subjected to, like, Gary slash Greg. I'm like, girl, what is going to happen on that man's murder board? He is a creep. Yeah. My goodness.

You know you need to find yourself a Walton Goggins.

No, I didn't. I brought my notepad with all the material I've collected over the years about your taste in men. Oh, that's not your man? That's not your man.

There was one shop a couple episodes ago that was like Patrick Schwarzenegger's like, you know, super toned, chiseled, tan body. And then like immediately cut to Walton Goggins like bald spot. And it's like wood. Absolutely. Wood and. My man. And want to and wish I could. The like, yeah, the contrast between like engineered for desire.