Ilana Redstone
Appearances
Something You Should Know
The Objective Science of Marijuana & Understanding the Certainty Trap
Thank you. Thank you so much for having me.
Something You Should Know
The Objective Science of Marijuana & Understanding the Certainty Trap
The easiest way to understand the certainty trap is to think about how we feel when we're in it. And what that means is it's the feeling of moral outrage, righteous indignation, contempt for somebody who disagrees, particularly on a heated or contentious topic.
Something You Should Know
The Objective Science of Marijuana & Understanding the Certainty Trap
And that comes from a couple of different things, including treating our knowledge, sort of what we know as definitive rather than provisional. It can come from treating our preferred, say, policy as having all benefits and no costs, treating complex situations as though they're simple. Any and all of the above are just examples.
Something You Should Know
The Objective Science of Marijuana & Understanding the Certainty Trap
I think that's right. I think that there's no reason that we should all be wandering around just in some kind of philosophical stupor all day. And so there are things that are just, they're not worth debating. And so one of the distinctions I think that's important here is the certainty and then the trap. So the trap part is the contempt.
Something You Should Know
The Objective Science of Marijuana & Understanding the Certainty Trap
because of the implications that it has for our, particularly for our political conversation. But not all certainty is what I'm treating as a trap, if that makes sense.
Something You Should Know
The Objective Science of Marijuana & Understanding the Certainty Trap
I think you're right. I think it is human nature. I think that ultimately I'm asking people to do something that does go against arguably human nature, it feels good to be morally outraged. It feels good to be righteously indignant. I'm trying to help people understand that this has implications for our political conversation, for political polarization, for how we get along, for social trust.
Something You Should Know
The Objective Science of Marijuana & Understanding the Certainty Trap
We can then make choices about how we want to move forward. I think we're better off doing that once we understand what those choices imply.
Something You Should Know
The Objective Science of Marijuana & Understanding the Certainty Trap
I think it's a great example. And so this is the distinction between the certainty and the trap. So the problem that I'm trying to solve for is really viewing people who disagree with contempt. So if you're, as you're describing with respect to abortion, live and let live, I have my position, you have yours, then that's not necessarily a problem of contempt. I can give you a different example.
Something You Should Know
The Objective Science of Marijuana & Understanding the Certainty Trap
Let's say I'm pro-choice and I'm viewing someone who is, depending on how I want to phrase it, they are pro-life or anti-choice. And let's say that instead of kind of thinking, well, I have this opinion, you have that opinion, and we're on different sides of this. I now think that you're a misogynist who is trying to
Something You Should Know
The Objective Science of Marijuana & Understanding the Certainty Trap
control my body right that's a different that's a different way of coming at that topic where i'm making assumptions about someone's intent their motives etc rather than sort of the first scenario which you described, which is I have my opinion and you have yours. And the certainty trap, what I'm saying in the certainty trap is not necessarily that our assumptions are wrong.
Something You Should Know
The Objective Science of Marijuana & Understanding the Certainty Trap
I don't have a crystal ball that tells me what's going on inside someone's mind, but it's telling me, it should be telling us to be willing to stop and question everything the assumptions that we're making and ask ourselves, could we be wrong and what would it mean if we were?
Something You Should Know
The Objective Science of Marijuana & Understanding the Certainty Trap
It is that. It's that as well. And so and I'll give you an example sort of just from where that what that can look like. So when I was having a conversation just a couple of weeks ago with a friend of mine who was in an argument with her husband and the argument was about they were it started out about just a difference of opinion and parenting styles.
Something You Should Know
The Objective Science of Marijuana & Understanding the Certainty Trap
Anyway, it ended up getting to be a fairly heated argument and to the point where he had he was planning to cancel a guy's weekend trip that was coming up. And he felt that she should cancel a work trip that was the following weekend. Basically, they should focus on the marriage, etc. As she's telling me this, and I'm listening to her, my first thought is, wow, that feels really unfair.
Something You Should Know
The Objective Science of Marijuana & Understanding the Certainty Trap
Like his guy weekend is not the same thing as your work trip that she rarely takes work trips. And that feels really, in my head, I was thinking that feels really controlling and manipulative.
Something You Should Know
The Objective Science of Marijuana & Understanding the Certainty Trap
this is what i was thinking about him for better or for worse so then a couple of days later she comes back and she they've talked and she said you know what he's he's really concerned about us taking time away from the marriage while things are not while we're not really on solid ground while we're not on solid footing whether that means the increased likelihood of infidelity
Something You Should Know
The Objective Science of Marijuana & Understanding the Certainty Trap
or just that it could create distance between the two of them. And suddenly, the assumptions that I had jumped to about him feeling sort of manipulative and controlling, I was stopped in my tracks. And I was sort of like, wow, I can... I can see how he got there.
Something You Should Know
The Objective Science of Marijuana & Understanding the Certainty Trap
I can see how he, whatever I originally thought about his decisions about canceling travel and work trips, when she said that, I could see, wow, I see how he could get there in a way that has nothing to do with being manipulative, being controlling, it's just out of concern for their marriage, et cetera. That's the difference between being in the certainty trap and out of it. Does that make sense?
Something You Should Know
The Objective Science of Marijuana & Understanding the Certainty Trap
Yeah, I think that's right. I mean, I think that example works too. I think all of those conclusions that we draw about people that allow us to, as you said, I mean, I think the word dismissive is really apt here, to just sort of be dismissive, to look the other way. Another example I can think of would be when I'm, I used to be the person on the plane who would get annoyed at people
Something You Should Know
The Objective Science of Marijuana & Understanding the Certainty Trap
children who are crying, particularly babies who are crying, right? This was years ago before I had kids.
Something You Should Know
The Objective Science of Marijuana & Understanding the Certainty Trap
It's always before you have kids. And I would think, oh my gosh, what does this person do? How is this parent, whatever the situation is, there must be something that they could be doing that would keep that child quiet and they're not doing it because they just don't care about how much it's bothering other people.
Something You Should Know
The Objective Science of Marijuana & Understanding the Certainty Trap
And then, you know, when I had kids and I was the person holding the crying child on the long flight and I had no idea what else I could do to try and quiet the child, like I'd done everything.
Something You Should Know
The Objective Science of Marijuana & Understanding the Certainty Trap
And I could imagine and I could I could easily imagine that there were other people on that flight that were viewing people that were, excuse me, that were viewing me the same way I had viewed others in those years before. That's certainty. That's that's the way it's about how we judge people.
Something You Should Know
The Objective Science of Marijuana & Understanding the Certainty Trap
It does seem to me like, I mean, I'm 51. It does seem to me like it is worse in the last, say, 20 years. I think people have a lot of theories about why that's the case. Social media is one of the things that is often mentioned. Social media rewards, if what you're trying to do is build a following, social media tends to reward outrage. So that creates an incentive.
Something You Should Know
The Objective Science of Marijuana & Understanding the Certainty Trap
I don't mean to say that that's the only factor, but I think it's probably one of them. And I also think that there have been changes in how we think about education, what's true about the world and how we treat that information that has shifted in the last 20 years.
Something You Should Know
The Objective Science of Marijuana & Understanding the Certainty Trap
It's that idea that the person who disagrees with me must be an idiot or hateful in some way. That's the problem that I'm trying to solve with the certainty trap. And it doesn't mean that you can't say, this is right, this is wrong, this is good, and this is bad. What it means is you need to be clear about it and clear about what those principles are that are sort of driving your opinion.
Something You Should Know
The Objective Science of Marijuana & Understanding the Certainty Trap
And that means, kind of as you were saying, that means not attacking someone's character.
Something You Should Know
The Objective Science of Marijuana & Understanding the Certainty Trap
It's a good question. I mean, so I don't wanna sound like I think there's one goal that sort of answers that question equally for everybody. I can give you one answer though. So I'm in the sociology department at the University of Illinois. And sociology, higher education, just on the political spectrum, I'm not saying anything new here. Higher education leans left.
Something You Should Know
The Objective Science of Marijuana & Understanding the Certainty Trap
Sociology within higher education is one of the disciplines that leans left within higher education. So that tends to be the orientation of a lot of the students that I see, for example. They, I would not say that when I interact with students, I would not say that their goal is necessarily education. to change minds, and I'm generalizing, there's obviously variability within students.
Something You Should Know
The Objective Science of Marijuana & Understanding the Certainty Trap
I would say that they genuinely feel certain and believe that they are doing the right thing when they are saying things this is wrong, this is hateful, et cetera, right?
Something You Should Know
The Objective Science of Marijuana & Understanding the Certainty Trap
Like, I think that it comes from, at least from what I've seen, not necessarily an instrumental goal of saying, I'm going to tell you you're racist and then you're going to change your mind, but a feeling that I need to call this out when I see it. And that's my, maybe they wouldn't word it this way, but that's my moral duty.
Something You Should Know
The Objective Science of Marijuana & Understanding the Certainty Trap
Right. Well, part of that is, well, I don't even, actually, I'm not even sure I agree with that. I don't think nothing comes with it. I think, sorry, nothing comes of it. I think that what comes out of it is more extremism, more polarization, more contempt, et cetera. Like I think what comes, and so part of what I'm trying to do is help them understand that that's part of what's going on.
Something You Should Know
The Objective Science of Marijuana & Understanding the Certainty Trap
So I don't think if what you mean by nothing, you know, what comes out of it, yeah, what comes out of it in terms of, As you started to say, changing minds, like making the world a better place, that I don't think is where it ends up. I think it has all of these other consequences. So in other words, I don't think that that kind of behavior is neutral.
Something You Should Know
The Objective Science of Marijuana & Understanding the Certainty Trap
I think it has negative consequences that I'm trying to help people understand.
Something You Should Know
The Objective Science of Marijuana & Understanding the Certainty Trap
It does. And it has all kinds of implications for, again, like I sort of said this, but for extremism, for pushing people to further to extreme positions, for how we use terms like
Something You Should Know
The Objective Science of Marijuana & Understanding the Certainty Trap
racist transphobic etc to condemn ideas um and and and all of what that means with the social consequences that go along with it in terms of cancel culture and everything else it's all sort of folded in to this idea of certainty in how we think about contentious topics really is that's the sort of through line between it and so what is the prescription if you think you're perhaps
Something You Should Know
The Objective Science of Marijuana & Understanding the Certainty Trap
I would love to see people start out. So what one of the things that I'll ask people to do is pick your some issue that you think and you think the person who has a different idea from you, it has to be. It's odious, it's objectionable, it's hateful, it's only some kind of moral monster would hold that opinion. And for different people, it will be different topics.
Something You Should Know
The Objective Science of Marijuana & Understanding the Certainty Trap
So whatever it is for you, and you can do this sitting in a room by yourself, pick that issue and challenge yourself to try and come up with a version of that person's opinion, the one that you find objectionable, that would make sense to you. And I mean something really specific by makes sense.
Something You Should Know
The Objective Science of Marijuana & Understanding the Certainty Trap
I mean that you can't hang on an assumption about their intent or that they just don't have the right information. So I call these, I have names for these fallacies, the fallacy of equal knowledge and the fallacy of known intent. So pick the objectionable point of view try and come up with a version of how the person could get to that point of view that makes sense to you.
Something You Should Know
The Objective Science of Marijuana & Understanding the Certainty Trap
And I'll just say this again. By makes sense, you're not hanging it on an assumption about their intent or that they just don't have the right information. Most of the time, for most issues, just going through that process helps people understand, wow, okay, I get it. There's a different way of thinking about this.
Something You Should Know
The Objective Science of Marijuana & Understanding the Certainty Trap
Then you can ask yourself the question, if you encounter somebody who has that view that you find objectionable, okay, well, maybe it's because they're hateful or stupid or whatever. But I actually also came up with this other possible explanation over here that I did on my own. How do I decide which one? That's destabilizing certainty, right? So now you have two possible explanations.
Something You Should Know
The Objective Science of Marijuana & Understanding the Certainty Trap
And you can ask yourself, how likely do I think one is versus the other and why and et cetera. If you can't, there will always be some issues where you cannot come up with, there's no version of the pro-slavery argument that I think is reasonable to me. When that happens, your commitment in avoiding the certainty trap is to being very clear about
Something You Should Know
The Objective Science of Marijuana & Understanding the Certainty Trap
about what kind of bedrock principle you're bumping up against. So in the slavery example, it might be something like, I think all lives have equal moral value, or I think no human being should enslave another. And naming that principle in a way and using language that somebody who disagrees with you would understand. Does that make sense?
Something You Should Know
The Objective Science of Marijuana & Understanding the Certainty Trap
Well, thank you so much.
Something You Should Know
The Objective Science of Marijuana & Understanding the Certainty Trap
I had Danielle and Megan record some answers to seemingly meaningless questions. I asked Danielle, what insect song is typically higher pitched in hotter temperatures and lower pitched in cooler temperatures?
Something You Should Know
The Objective Science of Marijuana & Understanding the Certainty Trap
And what that means is it's the feeling of moral outrage, righteous indignation, contempt for somebody who disagrees, particularly on a heated or contentious topic.