J. Kyle Mann

Folks, it's J. Kyle Mann from The Ringer. And as always, basketball is so freaking, freaking good. It's so good, in fact, that The Ringer's NBA Draft show is finally back just in time for a ramp up to June. We've got you covered every week as we take an in-depth look at who's got next for the NBA's future.

Folks, it's J. Kyle Mann from The Ringer. And as always, basketball is so freaking, freaking good. It's so good, in fact, that The Ringer's NBA Draft show is finally back just in time for a ramp up to June. We've got you covered every week as we take an in-depth look at who's got next for the NBA's future.

We'll talk the rising and falling stocks of the best and the brightest prospects in the 2025 NBA Draft class. From Cooper Flagg to Dylan Harper to B.J. Edgecombe and more. Tap in with me on the Ringer NBA Draft show every Wednesday and make sure that you follow, subscribe, and hit us with those five-star ratings.

We'll talk the rising and falling stocks of the best and the brightest prospects in the 2025 NBA Draft class. From Cooper Flagg to Dylan Harper to B.J. Edgecombe and more. Tap in with me on the Ringer NBA Draft show every Wednesday and make sure that you follow, subscribe, and hit us with those five-star ratings.

Smelling his jacket.

Smelling his jacket.

Folks, it's J. Kyle Mann from The Ringer. And as always, basketball is so freaking, freaking good. It's so good, in fact, that The Ringer's NBA Draft show is finally back just in time for a ramp up to June. We've got you covered every week as we take an in-depth look at who's got next for the NBA's future.

We'll talk the rising and falling stocks of the best and the brightest prospects in the 2025 NBA Draft class. From Cooper Flagg to Dylan Harper to B.J. Edgecombe and more. Tap in with me on the Ringer NBA Draft show every Wednesday and make sure that you follow, subscribe, and hit us with those five-star ratings.

Smelling his jacket.

Yeah, it's a pleasure to be here. It's a little weird for me. I've had the privilege in my basketball career coming to this later in life of just meeting a lot of people that I enjoyed over the years, like Bill. And this one is, yeah, just getting to talk to you is a little surreal. I'm not trying to weird you out, but I was like, oh, Zach Lowe's in my life now. This is awesome.

Yeah, it's a pleasure to be here. It's a little weird for me. I've had the privilege in my basketball career coming to this later in life of just meeting a lot of people that I enjoyed over the years, like Bill. And this one is, yeah, just getting to talk to you is a little surreal. I'm not trying to weird you out, but I was like, oh, Zach Lowe's in my life now. This is awesome.

And we start talking about the Simpsons immediately, of all things, right? Yeah.

And we start talking about the Simpsons immediately, of all things, right? Yeah.

uh i think the top four guys on the board i mean cooper obviously has distinguished himself and he is you know over way over here and i've talked about him ad nauseum all over the place people probably sick of it by now but i i think you're right and i agree with i agree with these nba execs and i'll validate their opinions uh i mean harper over the course of the year um

uh i think the top four guys on the board i mean cooper obviously has distinguished himself and he is you know over way over here and i've talked about him ad nauseum all over the place people probably sick of it by now but i i think you're right and i agree with i agree with these nba execs and i'll validate their opinions uh i mean harper over the course of the year um

You did feel some resistance to people boxing out any kind of discussion about like, is he sort of unassailably there at that number two spot? Because he does a lot of obvious things that translate to the way we watch the playoffs, which I always still Russillo's thing about painting a masterpiece.

You did feel some resistance to people boxing out any kind of discussion about like, is he sort of unassailably there at that number two spot? Because he does a lot of obvious things that translate to the way we watch the playoffs, which I always still Russillo's thing about painting a masterpiece.

It's like you can you can watch these guys and get excited about all these little quirky things they do. At the end of the day, it comes down to, will they be a liability that can be ignored on offense? Are they going to be picked on on switches? Those are the two things. If you check those two boxes, that's just how we have to look at it. Harper is a big guard at 6'6".

It's like you can you can watch these guys and get excited about all these little quirky things they do. At the end of the day, it comes down to, will they be a liability that can be ignored on offense? Are they going to be picked on on switches? Those are the two things. If you check those two boxes, that's just how we have to look at it. Harper is a big guard at 6'6".

I made this argument in the mock draft that we're getting ready to put out to plug that. He, in the half court, he's a guard that doesn't depend on the momentum of transition or just the momentum of... game flow to get in the paint. If the game slows down, he has incredible feet around the basket in the half court and he can score and continue to do the things that he does.

I made this argument in the mock draft that we're getting ready to put out to plug that. He, in the half court, he's a guard that doesn't depend on the momentum of transition or just the momentum of... game flow to get in the paint. If the game slows down, he has incredible feet around the basket in the half court and he can score and continue to do the things that he does.

But if you look at these guys, Ace Bailey profiles as a big shot maker, you know, VJ Edgecombe, these are high level athletes. Overall, there are some guys that there are to speak to what you're talking about. There are a few guys that have the talent to really, really jump up higher. You know, one here is Trey Johnson. I don't know if you've gotten to look into him at all.

But if you look at these guys, Ace Bailey profiles as a big shot maker, you know, VJ Edgecombe, these are high level athletes. Overall, there are some guys that there are to speak to what you're talking about. There are a few guys that have the talent to really, really jump up higher. You know, one here is Trey Johnson. I don't know if you've gotten to look into him at all.

He is an interesting – you mentioned the context of college, and I think that is the thing that people – you really have to dig into because even juxtaposing it against some of these high-level programs, like Liam McNeely is a guy that I don't know if you've gotten to. He's a little further down the list.

He is an interesting – you mentioned the context of college, and I think that is the thing that people – you really have to dig into because even juxtaposing it against some of these high-level programs, like Liam McNeely is a guy that I don't know if you've gotten to. He's a little further down the list.

But he played with Cooper at Montverde, and Montverde last year could have beaten some lower-level – D1 teams. They were so talented. They have like five guys that are first-rounders, essentially.

But he played with Cooper at Montverde, and Montverde last year could have beaten some lower-level – D1 teams. They were so talented. They have like five guys that are first-rounders, essentially.

But Trey, in particular, I'm always kind of on the lookout for these guys who, in the process of their development and their growth, once their first post-college year is the first time that they're on a team where they're not the best guy. And, you know, like Gigi Jackson had some pretty hilarious quotes where he was talking about, I've never stood in the corner.

But Trey, in particular, I'm always kind of on the lookout for these guys who, in the process of their development and their growth, once their first post-college year is the first time that they're on a team where they're not the best guy. And, you know, like Gigi Jackson had some pretty hilarious quotes where he was talking about, I've never stood in the corner.

It was like, for some of these guys, they've never done it. So Trey... I think the just temptation of the fruit of I should shoot every single time led to some overeating on his part and some anxiousness, I think, to shoot the ball.

It was like, for some of these guys, they've never done it. So Trey... I think the just temptation of the fruit of I should shoot every single time led to some overeating on his part and some anxiousness, I think, to shoot the ball.

Whereas if you put him into a situation and you just said, this is your compartment, this is your lane, you're going to shoot movement threes, you're going to be a gravity piece, we'll worry about the other kind of stuff later. If he gets picked by like the Sixers, say, hypothetically,

Whereas if you put him into a situation and you just said, this is your compartment, this is your lane, you're going to shoot movement threes, you're going to be a gravity piece, we'll worry about the other kind of stuff later. If he gets picked by like the Sixers, say, hypothetically,

that's something that's just going to work immediately because he hit threes in every which way, every type of action. And yeah, but you just kind of have to watch out for guys like that.

that's something that's just going to work immediately because he hit threes in every which way, every type of action. And yeah, but you just kind of have to watch out for guys like that.

This is the best part of it. You were talking about just the absurdity of all this preparation just coming down to... It reminds me of this feature somebody did one time about this one man who was on track to live to be 150 years old, and they were showing him, and he was like 70 years old, and I was like, what if that guy just steps outside, and after all that preparation, he gets hit by a car?

This is the best part of it. You were talking about just the absurdity of all this preparation just coming down to... It reminds me of this feature somebody did one time about this one man who was on track to live to be 150 years old, and they were showing him, and he was like 70 years old, and I was like, what if that guy just steps outside, and after all that preparation, he gets hit by a car?

That's kind of the equivalent of what we're talking about here, where... And you sit there and watch some of these people. One of my favorite clips of all time, and I know you've seen this one, is Jerry West suppressing the death inside when he realizes he's not going to get to take LeBron.

That's kind of the equivalent of what we're talking about here, where... And you sit there and watch some of these people. One of my favorite clips of all time, and I know you've seen this one, is Jerry West suppressing the death inside when he realizes he's not going to get to take LeBron.

I retweet this clip every year and put Needle in the Hay by Elliott Smith over it because you just watch these people die on national television. So I agree with you.

I retweet this clip every year and put Needle in the Hay by Elliott Smith over it because you just watch these people die on national television. So I agree with you.

I have some Intel from some, he's been measured before. This is one of my favorite parts of the draft world is the, just the, the people trading. Oh, where'd this measurement come from? Is this credible? Blah, blah, blah. I've already six, eight and a quarter. So we'll put a pin in that and we'll see if that's true.

I have some Intel from some, he's been measured before. This is one of my favorite parts of the draft world is the, just the, the people trading. Oh, where'd this measurement come from? Is this credible? Blah, blah, blah. I've already six, eight and a quarter. So we'll put a pin in that and we'll see if that's true.

Yeah, he's one of those interesting more shot maker than shooter types. It's an odd thing where he seems to like to – rhythm is just an interesting thing with shooting for me. It's like some guys just aren't comfortable without the dribble, without moving. When they don't have that rhythm, it just seems like their whole flow into their shot is different or their comfort level is.

Yeah, he's one of those interesting more shot maker than shooter types. It's an odd thing where he seems to like to – rhythm is just an interesting thing with shooting for me. It's like some guys just aren't comfortable without the dribble, without moving. When they don't have that rhythm, it just seems like their whole flow into their shot is different or their comfort level is.

But, yeah, I mean, he also I've heard has a 6'11.5 wingspan.

But, yeah, I mean, he also I've heard has a 6'11.5 wingspan.

um he's i i don't worry so much about that i think he's he's athletic like his one-step jump is pretty good he's he's pretty explosive the main thing is that he just can't leverage it right now because he can't dribble i mean and he's skinny so those are those are kind of the outlier questions outlying questions um okay uh give me the elevator pitch on jeremiah fierce Uh, that's a good one.

um he's i i don't worry so much about that i think he's he's athletic like his one-step jump is pretty good he's he's pretty explosive the main thing is that he just can't leverage it right now because he can't dribble i mean and he's skinny so those are those are kind of the outlier questions outlying questions um okay uh give me the elevator pitch on jeremiah fierce Uh, that's a good one.

This is one of the more polarizing subjects because you'll talk to scouts. It'll be like, I don't want to watch him anymore. That's one of those. I feel like I'm being waterboarded, but then you'll, um, no, I mean, but you can kind of see both sides of it. Uh, the people who really value, you know, on ball juice is a, is a jargony thing. People say, I mean, he's,

This is one of the more polarizing subjects because you'll talk to scouts. It'll be like, I don't want to watch him anymore. That's one of those. I feel like I'm being waterboarded, but then you'll, um, no, I mean, but you can kind of see both sides of it. Uh, the people who really value, you know, on ball juice is a, is a jargony thing. People say, I mean, he's,

He has a really connected, connective and fast vocabulary with the ball in his hands. He can string together these kind of improvised. And you'll watch younger guards sometimes who clearly have what I call trainer brain, where they get into a sequence and they've memorized this pattern. And once that pattern gets disrupted, once they're off book, they're like an actor who can't go off script.

He has a really connected, connective and fast vocabulary with the ball in his hands. He can string together these kind of improvised. And you'll watch younger guards sometimes who clearly have what I call trainer brain, where they get into a sequence and they've memorized this pattern. And once that pattern gets disrupted, once they're off book, they're like an actor who can't go off script.

They're like, I can't. They can't improvise. If you watch Fierce, he's really good with the ball in his hands. And he just... He just prints paint touches. He threw some passes where I was like, ooh, that's an NBA pass right there. Yeah.

They're like, I can't. They can't improvise. If you watch Fierce, he's really good with the ball in his hands. And he just... He just prints paint touches. He threw some passes where I was like, ooh, that's an NBA pass right there. Yeah.

The main thing is just can he sort of – I compared it to he needs that bonding agent of being able to shoot the ball to kind of tie it all together because he can get in the paint at will. I think he'll be a creative enough finisher.

The main thing is just can he sort of – I compared it to he needs that bonding agent of being able to shoot the ball to kind of tie it all together because he can get in the paint at will. I think he'll be a creative enough finisher.

It's just you got to be able to shoot the ball or else you end up becoming one of these guys that you can't become a primary if you're not a threat at the point of attack with the ball.

It's just you got to be able to shoot the ball or else you end up becoming one of these guys that you can't become a primary if you're not a threat at the point of attack with the ball.

I like these, though. I like these because you can get too close to the canvas and I'm staring at one tile and you'll be like, I see the picture. You're too close. I like hearing this stuff.

I like these, though. I like these because you can get too close to the canvas and I'm staring at one tile and you'll be like, I see the picture. You're too close. I like hearing this stuff.

Is it Iacoconus? Is it Casperus Iacoconus? No, he's exactly what I assumed he would be. A very clever tall pet.

Is it Iacoconus? Is it Casperus Iacoconus? No, he's exactly what I assumed he would be. A very clever tall pet.

Yeah, I couldn't think of a comp for him, honestly, because I was going through and I was like, I can't remember a movement shooter like this who is built like him. Can you think of any? I was I was just pouring through basketball reference.

Yeah, I couldn't think of a comp for him, honestly, because I was going through and I was like, I can't remember a movement shooter like this who is built like him. Can you think of any? I was I was just pouring through basketball reference.

Speaking of getting struck by lightning, I'm going to say something. When I watch him, I watched him in EYBL. I usually try to kind of know who these guys are before to get an idea of how to contextualize what they do in college. I'm not going to act like I'm a high school expert. I'm not. But I saw him a lot. And when he would play in the paint,

Speaking of getting struck by lightning, I'm going to say something. When I watch him, I watched him in EYBL. I usually try to kind of know who these guys are before to get an idea of how to contextualize what they do in college. I'm not going to act like I'm a high school expert. I'm not. But I saw him a lot. And when he would play in the paint,

He has that ability to sort of dole out punishment with that big frame and play at a pace off of two feet. I'm not saying they're the same player. I've invoked this guy before, but he has some Devin Bookery stuff when he gets to the elbow where he can hit somebody and then he has a gorgeous mid-range shot. He can create it for himself.

He has that ability to sort of dole out punishment with that big frame and play at a pace off of two feet. I'm not saying they're the same player. I've invoked this guy before, but he has some Devin Bookery stuff when he gets to the elbow where he can hit somebody and then he has a gorgeous mid-range shot. He can create it for himself.

I don't know that he's going to be getting downhill, but he's a pretty good connective passer. I think he's going to be somebody. It's just what you said. If he can hold up defensively, he adds a lot of stuff. I was like, Gordon Hayward? I wasn't sure quite who to compare him to. He's pretty unique, like you said.

I don't know that he's going to be getting downhill, but he's a pretty good connective passer. I think he's going to be somebody. It's just what you said. If he can hold up defensively, he adds a lot of stuff. I was like, Gordon Hayward? I wasn't sure quite who to compare him to. He's pretty unique, like you said.

I feel like the Jazz need to win this. I brought this up because since Harper, if they do end up with the second pick, if I were them, I would consider maybe moving it because of the dissonance that they're going to have. Not because they won't be able to figure it out, because I do think that Dylan Harper is going to be a better player than Isaiah Collier. Colin Sexton and Keontae George.

I feel like the Jazz need to win this. I brought this up because since Harper, if they do end up with the second pick, if I were them, I would consider maybe moving it because of the dissonance that they're going to have. Not because they won't be able to figure it out, because I do think that Dylan Harper is going to be a better player than Isaiah Collier. Colin Sexton and Keontae George.

I just think that having him as the implied... And you might be able to play them all together. Will Hardy is a brilliant guy. He could figure it out. I just think it would create some questions. And in this era where questions are just more difficult to answer than ever in terms of moving people. And I think that Flagg would just...

I just think that having him as the implied... And you might be able to play them all together. Will Hardy is a brilliant guy. He could figure it out. I just think it would create some questions. And in this era where questions are just more difficult to answer than ever in terms of moving people. And I think that Flagg would just...

they've been bad for a while now in this post Mitchell Gobert era. And I think that flag would just kind of set them off moving. I think the wizards will be okay. If they end up with Dylan Harper, he fits with the guys that they have and it'll be great. So I think it's the jazz.

they've been bad for a while now in this post Mitchell Gobert era. And I think that flag would just kind of set them off moving. I think the wizards will be okay. If they end up with Dylan Harper, he fits with the guys that they have and it'll be great. So I think it's the jazz.

You need a map, is what I always say. These teams that are trying to crawl out of the nothingness to somethingness, they just need a map. And a player like Cooper Flagg, when the Magic got Paolo, it was like, we have a map to build our team. When the Pistons got Cade, it was like, we have a clear plan. We need these pieces. And the great thing about

You need a map, is what I always say. These teams that are trying to crawl out of the nothingness to somethingness, they just need a map. And a player like Cooper Flagg, when the Magic got Paolo, it was like, we have a map to build our team. When the Pistons got Cade, it was like, we have a clear plan. We need these pieces. And the great thing about

Cooper is, he checks that box in terms of, yes, he gives you an idea of who you can build around, but he's so versatile that you can go a number of different directions because he doesn't have any kind of implied, I have to play this way in his game, which I think is what makes him such a special prospect. He could go a number of directions.

Cooper is, he checks that box in terms of, yes, he gives you an idea of who you can build around, but he's so versatile that you can go a number of different directions because he doesn't have any kind of implied, I have to play this way in his game, which I think is what makes him such a special prospect. He could go a number of directions.

And for the Jazz, there's nothing on here that is a map to me.

And for the Jazz, there's nothing on here that is a map to me.

forward it's like any you could keep any of this or get rid of any of this i don't know which direction they're going it's fine but it's just kind of middling and i think cooper would be uh he would be a just an explosion in the right direction i'll tell you though i'm just i'm just saying spurs are gonna have two lottery picks in like a seven percent chance or something at the number one pick i'm just like i i think on that one spurs win the lottery

forward it's like any you could keep any of this or get rid of any of this i don't know which direction they're going it's fine but it's just kind of middling and i think cooper would be uh he would be a just an explosion in the right direction i'll tell you though i'm just i'm just saying spurs are gonna have two lottery picks in like a seven percent chance or something at the number one pick i'm just like i i think on that one spurs win the lottery

Well, well, wait a minute, though. I mean, is does your I want to see this part of your brain kind of have it play any part in this? Because I'm curious for you watching the NBA as intensely as you do. Is there any team regardless of karma or whatever that in the Zach Lowe? I just want to see this rankings where who would you like?

Well, well, wait a minute, though. I mean, is does your I want to see this part of your brain kind of have it play any part in this? Because I'm curious for you watching the NBA as intensely as you do. Is there any team regardless of karma or whatever that in the Zach Lowe? I just want to see this rankings where who would you like?

Who would in the basketball sense you would like to see Cooper Flag play with that's in the lottery? This is your show. I did this to you.

Who would in the basketball sense you would like to see Cooper Flag play with that's in the lottery? This is your show. I did this to you.

Can we talk about this just for a second? I saw the Blazers up close in person. Just seeing them at eye level, I don't think people are tracking how defensively they are just a couple tweaks, I feel like, away from being a mega pain in the ass as a defensive team. And if they ended up getting flagged, I don't know.

Can we talk about this just for a second? I saw the Blazers up close in person. Just seeing them at eye level, I don't think people are tracking how defensively they are just a couple tweaks, I feel like, away from being a mega pain in the ass as a defensive team. And if they ended up getting flagged, I don't know.

I just I don't know that that's being talked about as much, you know, as it probably deserves, because the Rockets came along really quickly. And it wouldn't shock me if the Blazers get the right piece, if they sort of accelerate their timeline in a way where people are like, oh, yeah. And because they're huge, dude, in person.

I just I don't know that that's being talked about as much, you know, as it probably deserves, because the Rockets came along really quickly. And it wouldn't shock me if the Blazers get the right piece, if they sort of accelerate their timeline in a way where people are like, oh, yeah. And because they're huge, dude, in person.

Yeah, we talked about this on the draft show last week. It's come up. Yeah, it's sort of the Leonard Maltin secrets out kind of thing. Wow, where did that reference even come from in my brain? Yeah, you talk to NBA people and you're right. They get serious and they get quiet. Carter Bryan is similar in that way in that people are like, don't go talking about that one. Coward is...

Yeah, we talked about this on the draft show last week. It's come up. Yeah, it's sort of the Leonard Maltin secrets out kind of thing. Wow, where did that reference even come from in my brain? Yeah, you talk to NBA people and you're right. They get serious and they get quiet. Carter Bryan is similar in that way in that people are like, don't go talking about that one. Coward is...

He's interesting because if you just watch him with just an idiot optics basketball, this resembles this. He has big, broad shoulders. He has long arms. He has a body that's pretty similar to Shea Gilgis Alexander, just to put it quite frankly. He's 6'6". It wouldn't shock me if he has a 7'1 or a 7'2 wingspan. He has huge hands. He has big, wide shoulders.

He's interesting because if you just watch him with just an idiot optics basketball, this resembles this. He has big, broad shoulders. He has long arms. He has a body that's pretty similar to Shea Gilgis Alexander, just to put it quite frankly. He's 6'6". It wouldn't shock me if he has a 7'1 or a 7'2 wingspan. He has huge hands. He has big, wide shoulders.

He's not a super explosive athlete, but he's one of those long, kind of methodical guys. this is, I don't want to get struck by lightning again, but he has that Kauai kind of thing where he's so big and long and strong that he imprisons you with his footwork rather than like exploding by you. The big thing is he just can't dribble right now.

He's not a super explosive athlete, but he's one of those long, kind of methodical guys. this is, I don't want to get struck by lightning again, but he has that Kauai kind of thing where he's so big and long and strong that he imprisons you with his footwork rather than like exploding by you. The big thing is he just can't dribble right now.

So it's, it's not a disaster, but he can really hit threes. He's competitive as hell makes out of area of defensive plays. Yeah. I mean, it wouldn't shock me if he, and he's young, he he's a young senior. He's only 21 years old. So he's, he's going to have a lot of room to get better. All right. You have, um,

So it's, it's not a disaster, but he can really hit threes. He's competitive as hell makes out of area of defensive plays. Yeah. I mean, it wouldn't shock me if he, and he's young, he he's a young senior. He's only 21 years old. So he's, he's going to have a lot of room to get better. All right. You have, um,

Um, just from listening to your basketball preferences over the years, I'm not going to act like I'm an expert on this. I, you seem pretty familiar with Yaka Jonas. Um, I'm lower on Rashear Fleming than our mock is. Um, but I kind of feel like he's going to get picked higher. So I haven't, I haven't dove in on him yet. Tell me about him. Pretty simple proposition.

Um, just from listening to your basketball preferences over the years, I'm not going to act like I'm an expert on this. I, you seem pretty familiar with Yaka Jonas. Um, I'm lower on Rashear Fleming than our mock is. Um, but I kind of feel like he's going to get picked higher. So I haven't, I haven't dove in on him yet. Tell me about him. Pretty simple proposition.

I mean, he's a big, long forward who's pretty strong, probably going to be able to guard two through four, and he can hit open threes. That's it. I mean, he's not going to do a whole lot much more than that, in my opinion. But that's fine. You know, that's worth having on your team. I think that you're going to find – I said this to my buddy Ben Taylor too.

I mean, he's a big, long forward who's pretty strong, probably going to be able to guard two through four, and he can hit open threes. That's it. I mean, he's not going to do a whole lot much more than that, in my opinion. But that's fine. You know, that's worth having on your team. I think that you're going to find – I said this to my buddy Ben Taylor too.

Danny Wolfe is just an interesting specimen as a basketball player because he's probably 6'11", but he ran an incredible amount of pick and roll at Michigan. He can really pass the ball. He's one of those guys – I said that he shows little – flourishes of Hedo-ness in his game where he plays facing the basket and he's a legit, you know, four or five. He's interesting.

Danny Wolfe is just an interesting specimen as a basketball player because he's probably 6'11", but he ran an incredible amount of pick and roll at Michigan. He can really pass the ball. He's one of those guys – I said that he shows little – flourishes of Hedo-ness in his game where he plays facing the basket and he's a legit, you know, four or five. He's interesting.

And then another one, just looking in the range you said, if I had to pick, I think Yegor Dimon's really fascinating, but we'll see. I think Nick Clifford is probably, I think the Nick Clifford, Cedric Coward conversation is one that probably needs to be had, but I think Clifford's probably going to be a problem.

And then another one, just looking in the range you said, if I had to pick, I think Yegor Dimon's really fascinating, but we'll see. I think Nick Clifford is probably, I think the Nick Clifford, Cedric Coward conversation is one that probably needs to be had, but I think Clifford's probably going to be a problem.

Because he's older. Have the conversation. Well, I just think Coward's a little bit younger. He didn't get to develop in the high major scene the way that Clifford has, and people are giving him the benefit of that. But I think Clifford is somebody who's just going to be a good team defender. He can hit threes.

Because he's older. Have the conversation. Well, I just think Coward's a little bit younger. He didn't get to develop in the high major scene the way that Clifford has, and people are giving him the benefit of that. But I think Clifford is somebody who's just going to be a good team defender. He can hit threes.

I don't, I don't, it might be a little boring, but it's going to be, he's going to hold the line, I think, and be able to plug into a team. Cause we've seen like the Sixers try to do that with older or not the Sixers, the nuggets do that with older players with, you know, Jalen Pickett and these guys. And you can kind of see, it's like, eh, it's nice in theory.

I don't, I don't, it might be a little boring, but it's going to be, he's going to hold the line, I think, and be able to plug into a team. Cause we've seen like the Sixers try to do that with older or not the Sixers, the nuggets do that with older players with, you know, Jalen Pickett and these guys. And you can kind of see, it's like, eh, it's nice in theory.

I don't think it's in theory really with Clifford. I think he's going to be able to play, but Wolf, I think you should check out. All right.

I don't think it's in theory really with Clifford. I think he's going to be able to play, but Wolf, I think you should check out. All right.

Yeah, it's sort of the – I mean, Jared Vanderbilt is another one like that who people – everybody loves him, but there are just these problems that you can't escape eventually. I used to love Jordan Bell for similar reasons. Murray Boyles.

Yeah, it's sort of the – I mean, Jared Vanderbilt is another one like that who people – everybody loves him, but there are just these problems that you can't escape eventually. I used to love Jordan Bell for similar reasons. Murray Boyles.

Murray Boyles, I thought you might like him. Yeah, he's a little more offensively challenged, I think, but he's going to be like an assignment guy. I said that he's more of a dissuader than a disruptor. He doesn't make those home run –

Murray Boyles, I thought you might like him. Yeah, he's a little more offensively challenged, I think, but he's going to be like an assignment guy. I said that he's more of a dissuader than a disruptor. He doesn't make those home run –

defensive plays where he flies in and does something incredible athletically he's just he's a wall on defense he walls guys up he's just like no you're going up the lane you're not going towards the basket he just mercilessly and cruelly just takes the ball away from people uh he's got huge hands he'll just palm the ball and take it he's just sort of um i think that he's going to be an analytics darling darling i think people who really want it's going to be subtle and quiet but

defensive plays where he flies in and does something incredible athletically he's just he's a wall on defense he walls guys up he's just like no you're going up the lane you're not going towards the basket he just mercilessly and cruelly just takes the ball away from people uh he's got huge hands he'll just palm the ball and take it he's just sort of um i think that he's going to be an analytics darling darling i think people who really want it's going to be subtle and quiet but

Yeah, and I would differentiate Queen a little bit there. Queen has great hands, but he's more of a lazy lion type of guy. He's not high-motored, but then he'll make a really, really smart play, and you'll be like, are you just slow or paced, or are you just choosing?

Yeah, and I would differentiate Queen a little bit there. Queen has great hands, but he's more of a lazy lion type of guy. He's not high-motored, but then he'll make a really, really smart play, and you'll be like, are you just slow or paced, or are you just choosing?

Yeah, it's a pleasure to be here. It's a little weird for me. I've had the privilege in my basketball career coming to this later in life of just meeting a lot of people that I enjoyed over the years, like Bill. And this one is, yeah, just getting to talk to you is a little surreal. I'm not trying to weird you out, but I was like, oh, Zach Lowe's in my life now. This is awesome.

And we start talking about the Simpsons immediately, of all things, right? Yeah.

uh i think the top four guys on the board i mean cooper obviously has distinguished himself and he is you know over way over here and i've talked about him ad nauseum all over the place people probably sick of it by now but i i think you're right and i agree with i agree with these nba execs and i'll validate their opinions uh i mean harper over the course of the year um

You did feel some resistance to people boxing out any kind of discussion about like, is he sort of unassailably there at that number two spot? Because he does a lot of obvious things that translate to the way we watch the playoffs, which I always still Russillo's thing about painting a masterpiece.

It's like you can you can watch these guys and get excited about all these little quirky things they do. At the end of the day, it comes down to, will they be a liability that can be ignored on offense? Are they going to be picked on on switches? Those are the two things. If you check those two boxes, that's just how we have to look at it. Harper is a big guard at 6'6".

I made this argument in the mock draft that we're getting ready to put out to plug that. He, in the half court, he's a guard that doesn't depend on the momentum of transition or just the momentum of... game flow to get in the paint. If the game slows down, he has incredible feet around the basket in the half court and he can score and continue to do the things that he does.

But if you look at these guys, Ace Bailey profiles as a big shot maker, you know, VJ Edgecombe, these are high level athletes. Overall, there are some guys that there are to speak to what you're talking about. There are a few guys that have the talent to really, really jump up higher. You know, one here is Trey Johnson. I don't know if you've gotten to look into him at all.

He is an interesting – you mentioned the context of college, and I think that is the thing that people – you really have to dig into because even juxtaposing it against some of these high-level programs, like Liam McNeely is a guy that I don't know if you've gotten to. He's a little further down the list.

But he played with Cooper at Montverde, and Montverde last year could have beaten some lower-level – D1 teams. They were so talented. They have like five guys that are first-rounders, essentially.

But Trey, in particular, I'm always kind of on the lookout for these guys who, in the process of their development and their growth, once their first post-college year is the first time that they're on a team where they're not the best guy. And, you know, like Gigi Jackson had some pretty hilarious quotes where he was talking about, I've never stood in the corner.

It was like, for some of these guys, they've never done it. So Trey... I think the just temptation of the fruit of I should shoot every single time led to some overeating on his part and some anxiousness, I think, to shoot the ball.

Whereas if you put him into a situation and you just said, this is your compartment, this is your lane, you're going to shoot movement threes, you're going to be a gravity piece, we'll worry about the other kind of stuff later. If he gets picked by like the Sixers, say, hypothetically,

that's something that's just going to work immediately because he hit threes in every which way, every type of action. And yeah, but you just kind of have to watch out for guys like that.

This is the best part of it. You were talking about just the absurdity of all this preparation just coming down to... It reminds me of this feature somebody did one time about this one man who was on track to live to be 150 years old, and they were showing him, and he was like 70 years old, and I was like, what if that guy just steps outside, and after all that preparation, he gets hit by a car?

That's kind of the equivalent of what we're talking about here, where... And you sit there and watch some of these people. One of my favorite clips of all time, and I know you've seen this one, is Jerry West suppressing the death inside when he realizes he's not going to get to take LeBron.

I retweet this clip every year and put Needle in the Hay by Elliott Smith over it because you just watch these people die on national television. So I agree with you.

I have some Intel from some, he's been measured before. This is one of my favorite parts of the draft world is the, just the, the people trading. Oh, where'd this measurement come from? Is this credible? Blah, blah, blah. I've already six, eight and a quarter. So we'll put a pin in that and we'll see if that's true.

Yeah, he's one of those interesting more shot maker than shooter types. It's an odd thing where he seems to like to – rhythm is just an interesting thing with shooting for me. It's like some guys just aren't comfortable without the dribble, without moving. When they don't have that rhythm, it just seems like their whole flow into their shot is different or their comfort level is.

But, yeah, I mean, he also I've heard has a 6'11.5 wingspan.

um he's i i don't worry so much about that i think he's he's athletic like his one-step jump is pretty good he's he's pretty explosive the main thing is that he just can't leverage it right now because he can't dribble i mean and he's skinny so those are those are kind of the outlier questions outlying questions um okay uh give me the elevator pitch on jeremiah fierce Uh, that's a good one.

This is one of the more polarizing subjects because you'll talk to scouts. It'll be like, I don't want to watch him anymore. That's one of those. I feel like I'm being waterboarded, but then you'll, um, no, I mean, but you can kind of see both sides of it. Uh, the people who really value, you know, on ball juice is a, is a jargony thing. People say, I mean, he's,

He has a really connected, connective and fast vocabulary with the ball in his hands. He can string together these kind of improvised. And you'll watch younger guards sometimes who clearly have what I call trainer brain, where they get into a sequence and they've memorized this pattern. And once that pattern gets disrupted, once they're off book, they're like an actor who can't go off script.

They're like, I can't. They can't improvise. If you watch Fierce, he's really good with the ball in his hands. And he just... He just prints paint touches. He threw some passes where I was like, ooh, that's an NBA pass right there. Yeah.

The main thing is just can he sort of – I compared it to he needs that bonding agent of being able to shoot the ball to kind of tie it all together because he can get in the paint at will. I think he'll be a creative enough finisher.

It's just you got to be able to shoot the ball or else you end up becoming one of these guys that you can't become a primary if you're not a threat at the point of attack with the ball.

I like these, though. I like these because you can get too close to the canvas and I'm staring at one tile and you'll be like, I see the picture. You're too close. I like hearing this stuff.

Is it Iacoconus? Is it Casperus Iacoconus? No, he's exactly what I assumed he would be. A very clever tall pet.

Yeah, I couldn't think of a comp for him, honestly, because I was going through and I was like, I can't remember a movement shooter like this who is built like him. Can you think of any? I was I was just pouring through basketball reference.

Speaking of getting struck by lightning, I'm going to say something. When I watch him, I watched him in EYBL. I usually try to kind of know who these guys are before to get an idea of how to contextualize what they do in college. I'm not going to act like I'm a high school expert. I'm not. But I saw him a lot. And when he would play in the paint,

He has that ability to sort of dole out punishment with that big frame and play at a pace off of two feet. I'm not saying they're the same player. I've invoked this guy before, but he has some Devin Bookery stuff when he gets to the elbow where he can hit somebody and then he has a gorgeous mid-range shot. He can create it for himself.

I don't know that he's going to be getting downhill, but he's a pretty good connective passer. I think he's going to be somebody. It's just what you said. If he can hold up defensively, he adds a lot of stuff. I was like, Gordon Hayward? I wasn't sure quite who to compare him to. He's pretty unique, like you said.

I feel like the Jazz need to win this. I brought this up because since Harper, if they do end up with the second pick, if I were them, I would consider maybe moving it because of the dissonance that they're going to have. Not because they won't be able to figure it out, because I do think that Dylan Harper is going to be a better player than Isaiah Collier. Colin Sexton and Keontae George.

I just think that having him as the implied... And you might be able to play them all together. Will Hardy is a brilliant guy. He could figure it out. I just think it would create some questions. And in this era where questions are just more difficult to answer than ever in terms of moving people. And I think that Flagg would just...

they've been bad for a while now in this post Mitchell Gobert era. And I think that flag would just kind of set them off moving. I think the wizards will be okay. If they end up with Dylan Harper, he fits with the guys that they have and it'll be great. So I think it's the jazz.

You need a map, is what I always say. These teams that are trying to crawl out of the nothingness to somethingness, they just need a map. And a player like Cooper Flagg, when the Magic got Paolo, it was like, we have a map to build our team. When the Pistons got Cade, it was like, we have a clear plan. We need these pieces. And the great thing about

Cooper is, he checks that box in terms of, yes, he gives you an idea of who you can build around, but he's so versatile that you can go a number of different directions because he doesn't have any kind of implied, I have to play this way in his game, which I think is what makes him such a special prospect. He could go a number of directions.

And for the Jazz, there's nothing on here that is a map to me.

forward it's like any you could keep any of this or get rid of any of this i don't know which direction they're going it's fine but it's just kind of middling and i think cooper would be uh he would be a just an explosion in the right direction i'll tell you though i'm just i'm just saying spurs are gonna have two lottery picks in like a seven percent chance or something at the number one pick i'm just like i i think on that one spurs win the lottery

Well, well, wait a minute, though. I mean, is does your I want to see this part of your brain kind of have it play any part in this? Because I'm curious for you watching the NBA as intensely as you do. Is there any team regardless of karma or whatever that in the Zach Lowe? I just want to see this rankings where who would you like?

Who would in the basketball sense you would like to see Cooper Flag play with that's in the lottery? This is your show. I did this to you.

Can we talk about this just for a second? I saw the Blazers up close in person. Just seeing them at eye level, I don't think people are tracking how defensively they are just a couple tweaks, I feel like, away from being a mega pain in the ass as a defensive team. And if they ended up getting flagged, I don't know.

I just I don't know that that's being talked about as much, you know, as it probably deserves, because the Rockets came along really quickly. And it wouldn't shock me if the Blazers get the right piece, if they sort of accelerate their timeline in a way where people are like, oh, yeah. And because they're huge, dude, in person.

Yeah, we talked about this on the draft show last week. It's come up. Yeah, it's sort of the Leonard Maltin secrets out kind of thing. Wow, where did that reference even come from in my brain? Yeah, you talk to NBA people and you're right. They get serious and they get quiet. Carter Bryan is similar in that way in that people are like, don't go talking about that one. Coward is...

He's interesting because if you just watch him with just an idiot optics basketball, this resembles this. He has big, broad shoulders. He has long arms. He has a body that's pretty similar to Shea Gilgis Alexander, just to put it quite frankly. He's 6'6". It wouldn't shock me if he has a 7'1 or a 7'2 wingspan. He has huge hands. He has big, wide shoulders.

He's not a super explosive athlete, but he's one of those long, kind of methodical guys. this is, I don't want to get struck by lightning again, but he has that Kauai kind of thing where he's so big and long and strong that he imprisons you with his footwork rather than like exploding by you. The big thing is he just can't dribble right now.

So it's, it's not a disaster, but he can really hit threes. He's competitive as hell makes out of area of defensive plays. Yeah. I mean, it wouldn't shock me if he, and he's young, he he's a young senior. He's only 21 years old. So he's, he's going to have a lot of room to get better. All right. You have, um,

Um, just from listening to your basketball preferences over the years, I'm not going to act like I'm an expert on this. I, you seem pretty familiar with Yaka Jonas. Um, I'm lower on Rashear Fleming than our mock is. Um, but I kind of feel like he's going to get picked higher. So I haven't, I haven't dove in on him yet. Tell me about him. Pretty simple proposition.

I mean, he's a big, long forward who's pretty strong, probably going to be able to guard two through four, and he can hit open threes. That's it. I mean, he's not going to do a whole lot much more than that, in my opinion. But that's fine. You know, that's worth having on your team. I think that you're going to find – I said this to my buddy Ben Taylor too.

Danny Wolfe is just an interesting specimen as a basketball player because he's probably 6'11", but he ran an incredible amount of pick and roll at Michigan. He can really pass the ball. He's one of those guys – I said that he shows little – flourishes of Hedo-ness in his game where he plays facing the basket and he's a legit, you know, four or five. He's interesting.

And then another one, just looking in the range you said, if I had to pick, I think Yegor Dimon's really fascinating, but we'll see. I think Nick Clifford is probably, I think the Nick Clifford, Cedric Coward conversation is one that probably needs to be had, but I think Clifford's probably going to be a problem.

Because he's older. Have the conversation. Well, I just think Coward's a little bit younger. He didn't get to develop in the high major scene the way that Clifford has, and people are giving him the benefit of that. But I think Clifford is somebody who's just going to be a good team defender. He can hit threes.

I don't, I don't, it might be a little boring, but it's going to be, he's going to hold the line, I think, and be able to plug into a team. Cause we've seen like the Sixers try to do that with older or not the Sixers, the nuggets do that with older players with, you know, Jalen Pickett and these guys. And you can kind of see, it's like, eh, it's nice in theory.

I don't think it's in theory really with Clifford. I think he's going to be able to play, but Wolf, I think you should check out. All right.

Yeah, it's sort of the – I mean, Jared Vanderbilt is another one like that who people – everybody loves him, but there are just these problems that you can't escape eventually. I used to love Jordan Bell for similar reasons. Murray Boyles.

Murray Boyles, I thought you might like him. Yeah, he's a little more offensively challenged, I think, but he's going to be like an assignment guy. I said that he's more of a dissuader than a disruptor. He doesn't make those home run –

defensive plays where he flies in and does something incredible athletically he's just he's a wall on defense he walls guys up he's just like no you're going up the lane you're not going towards the basket he just mercilessly and cruelly just takes the ball away from people uh he's got huge hands he'll just palm the ball and take it he's just sort of um i think that he's going to be an analytics darling darling i think people who really want it's going to be subtle and quiet but

Yeah, and I would differentiate Queen a little bit there. Queen has great hands, but he's more of a lazy lion type of guy. He's not high-motored, but then he'll make a really, really smart play, and you'll be like, are you just slow or paced, or are you just choosing?