Jack Posobiec

And that's really the starting point for your excursion here.

Now, you put together some interesting arguments, and I wanted to...

talk to you because often, you know, perhaps we're two sides and talking amongst ourselves.

And I really wanted the opportunity

to to dive in a little bit about what you're saying because your your thesis in this article is that leo pope leo leo xiv might well indeed be a point of opposition to the christian nationalist agenda let's start off with something that you say in your article and go from there

Because you say that Steve was articulating a political theology and a claim that a leader, if chosen by God, stands above human law and temporal limits.

and that that idea once and still is the claim of monarchs and that it's re-entered modern politics.

That's a very interesting way of looking.

I don't know if Steve has ever quite put it in those words.

But you go on to say that the movements that we follow very much on this show differ in creed and converge in disposition, which is an interesting way of putting it, because a lot of these populist nationalist iterations do have conflicts between them, but sort of can unite around a border problem.

What I want to start off with asking you is this, because you say that they sacralise exclusion, distrust pluralism and cast political opposition as moral decay.

What do you mean?

Because you're obviously not really, you know, there's no problem with that, but you're clearly not part of the Christian community.

What does it mean for someone who opposes the Christian nationalist movement to suggest that what we're doing is sacralizing exclusion?

so this is the um so you think from your perspective that what we're doing here is othering to use the contemporary verb where we're othering um people who aren't part of the movement for political motivation

When I hear you talking, Professor Reyes, I get a thought, an idea, which I'd never, it's never occurred to me before.

And I need to think about this some more.

But the, you know, the old, in Catholic theology, there was this old principle of extra ecclesia nulla salus, right?

There's no salvation outside the church.

What you're suggesting is that sort of, that's,