Jake Humphrey

You could argue that at least it's transparent, the enhanced games.

You know, at least they're telling you that people are cheating or sort of crossing that ethical line.

Yeah, and then you've got that dirty bacterial water that you've injected instead.

look but there's something for me about like like as you talk about it like some of the stuff if it's sprinting or if it's cycling then you go well the question there is the personal reset is to you you know you might cheat but when you get sports like boxing for example where the where the where the whole purpose is to render your opponent um in a position where he can't continue the fight you

The idea of allowing people to get away or have these loopholes to take drugs where you can render somebody damaged as a consequence of it, it really starts to turn my stomach.

And what was the consequence of that?

For someone that would hear this and almost tune out of it, for what he tested positive for, what would that mean in terms of his ability as a fighter?

um and you know you also cross the ethical line but when it comes to boxing yeah that's when it can become extremely extremely dangerous the question that sort of jumps out for me james and i'm listening to this is have you reached a point where the biggest danger for sport isn't in the shadows it's almost like this this normalization of winning at all costs

beyond what is probably human you know it's quite unusual to train that much so so let's try and twist it to a more hope like a more hopeful lens in in your book can you tell us like the human cost that you saw for both the cheetah and the clean athlete yeah but there was i guess the starkest example

You know, as an athlete yourself, you're a risk taker.

You're putting yourself in the arena.

So I can see a lot of the arguments for why, if you can extend your career, if it makes that 12% difference you described that EPO can give you.

I can see why as an athlete you'd be seduced.

But for those of us that are not on that starting line, but are around these often young people, what do you think the cultural changes that we could all contribute to...

could start to shift the dial on this.

yeah it's fascinating like as you're saying it there I'm thinking like because I still think it's true isn't it like Lance Armstrong has never failed a drugs test in the sport it's his own admission but that was funded by was it the CIA going after him at the time rather than

rather than the doping off.

Yeah, yeah.

So as researching and writing this brilliant book, has it spoiled your enjoyment of elite level sport?

Yeah, tell us a story about her.