Jason Horowitz

for the next generation are going to be of a different mindset. And that mindset becomes clear is much less traditional and is much more open to debate and much more pastoral. And that's sort of the guiding word for Francis, pastoral. And again, it goes back to the very beginnings with him.

for the next generation are going to be of a different mindset. And that mindset becomes clear is much less traditional and is much more open to debate and much more pastoral. And that's sort of the guiding word for Francis, pastoral. And again, it goes back to the very beginnings with him.

And he just wants a bishop and he wants a priest who's going to be with people and helping them work things out. He doesn't want somebody shaking their finger at a parishioner and saying, what we do here. And so that turns out to be a major shift. And it's not changing the laws of the church, the doctrine. What was doctrine the day before Francis got in is still doctrine now.

And he just wants a bishop and he wants a priest who's going to be with people and helping them work things out. He doesn't want somebody shaking their finger at a parishioner and saying, what we do here. And so that turns out to be a major shift. And it's not changing the laws of the church, the doctrine. What was doctrine the day before Francis got in is still doctrine now.

But even if it's not changing the laws, the people who love the laws start thinking that this is a gigantic threat to that old mindset. And what is the reaction among those who see this as a threat? you know, at first they give him some time, you know, they give him a couple years, and then they start saying, well, this is really dangerous. And a couple of them start speaking out.

But even if it's not changing the laws, the people who love the laws start thinking that this is a gigantic threat to that old mindset. And what is the reaction among those who see this as a threat? you know, at first they give him some time, you know, they give him a couple years, and then they start saying, well, this is really dangerous. And a couple of them start speaking out.

It's very, very unusual to challenge the Pope if you're a cardinal, right? Right. And the whole thing is basically a hierarchy that's based on the idea that the Pope is in charge, and that you might agree, you might disagree, but if you disagree, you probably don't go out and say something because he's the Pope. That changes.

It's very, very unusual to challenge the Pope if you're a cardinal, right? Right. And the whole thing is basically a hierarchy that's based on the idea that the Pope is in charge, and that you might agree, you might disagree, but if you disagree, you probably don't go out and say something because he's the Pope. That changes.

The conservatives are so upset and they're so worried that Francis is going to wreck the church that they start even sending in these complicated technical Vatican things called dubias, which are questions. And what they're doing is they're questioning Francis' own understanding of what he's doing. They're saying, you said this thing. Do you really know what you're talking about? Wow.

The conservatives are so upset and they're so worried that Francis is going to wreck the church that they start even sending in these complicated technical Vatican things called dubias, which are questions. And what they're doing is they're questioning Francis' own understanding of what he's doing. They're saying, you said this thing. Do you really know what you're talking about? Wow.

And so Francis, who's very politically savvy— responds in a way that drives them crazy, which is he doesn't even deign to respond. Wow. He ignores them completely. Drives them nuts. Why? Because he doesn't want to give them oxygen. is what I think is what it was. At the time, they're small but noisy, if somewhat powerful, within the Vatican group.

And so Francis, who's very politically savvy— responds in a way that drives them crazy, which is he doesn't even deign to respond. Wow. He ignores them completely. Drives them nuts. Why? Because he doesn't want to give them oxygen. is what I think is what it was. At the time, they're small but noisy, if somewhat powerful, within the Vatican group.

But he knows he is a wildly popular figure around the world. He's wildly popular, especially with rank-and-file Catholics. Regular Catholics adore him because they see him as caring about them. And so why would he all of a sudden get into a theological argument with a conservative opposition group within the church, which is not what he sees himself there for? So he ignores them.

But he knows he is a wildly popular figure around the world. He's wildly popular, especially with rank-and-file Catholics. Regular Catholics adore him because they see him as caring about them. And so why would he all of a sudden get into a theological argument with a conservative opposition group within the church, which is not what he sees himself there for? So he ignores them.

But while he ignores them, they don't go away. They keep building momentum. And many of them happen to be American because the American church is extremely conservative, traditionally very conservative. And in America, there is a lot of money and there is a lot of media. And those two things amplify the opposition to Francis.

But while he ignores them, they don't go away. They keep building momentum. And many of them happen to be American because the American church is extremely conservative, traditionally very conservative. And in America, there is a lot of money and there is a lot of media. And those two things amplify the opposition to Francis.

And it becomes also very much attached to and married to populist politics. So you have people like Steve Bannon coming to Rome.

And it becomes also very much attached to and married to populist politics. So you have people like Steve Bannon coming to Rome.

And he's using his outlets to try and, you know, amplify the messages that are coming out of the conservative American church. And it ends up being this sort of strange ecosystem with a common target, and that is Francis.

And he's using his outlets to try and, you know, amplify the messages that are coming out of the conservative American church. And it ends up being this sort of strange ecosystem with a common target, and that is Francis.