Jason Horowitz

It keeps getting bigger and bigger. You know, I remember being in a basement of a hotel where all the entire opposition to Francis, essentially, within the Vatican had gathered. Wow. And there was Cardinal Burke on the dais. And he basically said that we have a problem where we think the pope might be a heretic, right? He couches his language.

It keeps getting bigger and bigger. You know, I remember being in a basement of a hotel where all the entire opposition to Francis, essentially, within the Vatican had gathered. Wow. And there was Cardinal Burke on the dais. And he basically said that we have a problem where we think the pope might be a heretic, right? He couches his language.

Yeah, and it wasn't unusual in that crowd, right? They had basically become convinced that, oh, we have a major problem here. We have a pope who doesn't believe in what the Catholic Church believes in.

Yeah, and it wasn't unusual in that crowd, right? They had basically become convinced that, oh, we have a major problem here. We have a pope who doesn't believe in what the Catholic Church believes in.

Then eventually you have actually accusations levied against Francis, accusing him of knowing about child sexual abuse and hiding it.

Then eventually you have actually accusations levied against Francis, accusing him of knowing about child sexual abuse and hiding it.

And it ends up being a full-on sort of revolt against Francis. He tries to stay above it. But I remember I asked him once on a flight, I said, you know, these people, they can't stand you. And they're talking about breaking apart from the church. What do you think? I mean, what's your opinion about this? And he basically said something that I thought was really interesting.

And it ends up being a full-on sort of revolt against Francis. He tries to stay above it. But I remember I asked him once on a flight, I said, you know, these people, they can't stand you. And they're talking about breaking apart from the church. What do you think? I mean, what's your opinion about this? And he basically said something that I thought was really interesting.

He said, look, the history of the church is very, very long. There's been lots of schisms, right? These people breaking apart. I hope they don't do it. But if they do it, and he sort of shrugged and he said, then they do it. I'm not scared. In other words, he's saying, you know, have a party, guys. If you really want to break away off on this. He's daring them.

He said, look, the history of the church is very, very long. There's been lots of schisms, right? These people breaking apart. I hope they don't do it. But if they do it, and he sort of shrugged and he said, then they do it. I'm not scared. In other words, he's saying, you know, have a party, guys. If you really want to break away off on this. He's daring them.

Yeah, he was saying like he was playing chicken with them. Because on some level, he knows they're probably not going to do it. They're probably not going to do it. And it's also not what he thinks it's about, right? Right? He thinks that this is a distraction from doing the mission of the church, which is going out and being pastors to people who need their help.

Yeah, he was saying like he was playing chicken with them. Because on some level, he knows they're probably not going to do it. They're probably not going to do it. And it's also not what he thinks it's about, right? Right? He thinks that this is a distraction from doing the mission of the church, which is going out and being pastors to people who need their help.

Exactly. I think what these initial sort of symbolic changes that Francis does, that what they do is they whet the appetite of liberals in the Catholic Church who start thinking, oh my God, this guy's actually going to make huge changes. And they're waiting and then they're waiting some more. And I think it starts dawning on liberals that maybe he's actually not going to change anything.

Exactly. I think what these initial sort of symbolic changes that Francis does, that what they do is they whet the appetite of liberals in the Catholic Church who start thinking, oh my God, this guy's actually going to make huge changes. And they're waiting and then they're waiting some more. And I think it starts dawning on liberals that maybe he's actually not going to change anything.

And that maybe this is actually symbolic. And the very things that upset the conservatives in a way also upset the liberals because it's not enough. Right. for the liver. Fascinating. Right? What's the definition of not enough? Well, I mean, if you look across the board, there's things where he seemed to walk right up to the line on. For example, remember when we talked about divorce?

And that maybe this is actually symbolic. And the very things that upset the conservatives in a way also upset the liberals because it's not enough. Right. for the liver. Fascinating. Right? What's the definition of not enough? Well, I mean, if you look across the board, there's things where he seemed to walk right up to the line on. For example, remember when we talked about divorce?

It seemed like it was, he had opened the door, he was going to walk right through it. Instead, all he did was crack open the door. He never actually made the change. But then, even on, you know, sort of the hot-button topics of the Catholic Church, such as women becoming priests, no movement on that. Women becoming deacons, he... closes the door on that as well.

It seemed like it was, he had opened the door, he was going to walk right through it. Instead, all he did was crack open the door. He never actually made the change. But then, even on, you know, sort of the hot-button topics of the Catholic Church, such as women becoming priests, no movement on that. Women becoming deacons, he... closes the door on that as well.

He allows a little bit of debate, but it's debate that he's allowing and he's not changing the rules. And so at a certain point, it starts dawning on liberals in the church that, wait a minute, maybe this guy's actually not going to change anything. Maybe this is all about sort of redirecting the ship, but where are we going to go? Is he going to move it forward?

He allows a little bit of debate, but it's debate that he's allowing and he's not changing the rules. And so at a certain point, it starts dawning on liberals in the church that, wait a minute, maybe this guy's actually not going to change anything. Maybe this is all about sort of redirecting the ship, but where are we going to go? Is he going to move it forward?