Jason Horowitz

And when I think of Francis, I think of sort of a dividing line in the Roman Catholic Church, that there are those who see him as finally a breath of fresh air, who came in willing to introduce or at least entertain reforms that would thrust the church into modernity. And so on the liberal sort of side of the church, they saw in Francis...

And when I think of Francis, I think of sort of a dividing line in the Roman Catholic Church, that there are those who see him as finally a breath of fresh air, who came in willing to introduce or at least entertain reforms that would thrust the church into modernity. And so on the liberal sort of side of the church, they saw in Francis...

The guy who was finally going to go to bat for them and who was going to make these changes and who was going to make the church much more relevant. On the other side of the coin, you had conservatives who had been in power for decades with John Paul II and Benedict XVI. And they first saw Francis as actually on their side, but then came to fear him.

The guy who was finally going to go to bat for them and who was going to make these changes and who was going to make the church much more relevant. On the other side of the coin, you had conservatives who had been in power for decades with John Paul II and Benedict XVI. And they first saw Francis as actually on their side, but then came to fear him.

And came to fear him and what he might do to the doctrine of the church, to what they consider the truth of the church, that he would basically shake it so much that he would break it. And as a result, there was a robust opposition to him within the Vatican and beyond. And I think in the end, it's not clear what side he's on because I don't think he thought of himself that way.

And came to fear him and what he might do to the doctrine of the church, to what they consider the truth of the church, that he would basically shake it so much that he would break it. And as a result, there was a robust opposition to him within the Vatican and beyond. And I think in the end, it's not clear what side he's on because I don't think he thought of himself that way.

I think he thought of himself as doing something very different, being a pope for not the partisan sides of the church, but for the flock.

I think he thought of himself as doing something very different, being a pope for not the partisan sides of the church, but for the flock.

So Francis is born as Jorge Bergoglio. He's from Buenos Aires in Argentina. He's from a very humble neighborhood. You know, he's not poor, but he's more sort of middle class. But just a normal family of Italian descent. His grandmother, who he was deeply close to and was deeply religious, was an Italian immigrant.

So Francis is born as Jorge Bergoglio. He's from Buenos Aires in Argentina. He's from a very humble neighborhood. You know, he's not poor, but he's more sort of middle class. But just a normal family of Italian descent. His grandmother, who he was deeply close to and was deeply religious, was an Italian immigrant.

And also that experience of growing up in an immigrant neighborhood, I think, opened his eyes to people trying to make it. And there were also influences throughout his life and his upbringing that I think had a lasting effect. He wanted to be a chemist at a certain point. And he had teachers who had communist politics.

And also that experience of growing up in an immigrant neighborhood, I think, opened his eyes to people trying to make it. And there were also influences throughout his life and his upbringing that I think had a lasting effect. He wanted to be a chemist at a certain point. And he had teachers who had communist politics.

And it didn't mean that he was a communist, right, which is what some of his critics said. But he sees the world from a bottom-up point of view. And that just imbues him with an empathy that in a way is his sort of guiding light, right, through everything.

And it didn't mean that he was a communist, right, which is what some of his critics said. But he sees the world from a bottom-up point of view. And that just imbues him with an empathy that in a way is his sort of guiding light, right, through everything.

Right. The Roman Catholic faith was always really present in Bergoglio's life. So he had a sense of the church as an important institution in one's life. And, you know, at a certain point, he's a teenager. He has a bunch of friends. He's going to go hang out with them. But he passes the Basilica of St. Joseph and he has an epiphany.

Right. The Roman Catholic faith was always really present in Bergoglio's life. So he had a sense of the church as an important institution in one's life. And, you know, at a certain point, he's a teenager. He has a bunch of friends. He's going to go hang out with them. But he passes the Basilica of St. Joseph and he has an epiphany.

He feels a calling and he decides that, no, he's not going to be a chemist. He is going to dedicate his life to the church. He wants to be a priest. And that changes his life and it changes the life of the church eventually.

He feels a calling and he decides that, no, he's not going to be a chemist. He is going to dedicate his life to the church. He wants to be a priest. And that changes his life and it changes the life of the church eventually.

So Francis becomes a priest, and he's a Jesuit priest, which is a Catholic order probably best known for being intellectuals. They care a lot about education. They travel around the world. They believe a lot in social justice. And even though the hierarchy isn't necessarily what interests him, he climbs the hierarchy.

So Francis becomes a priest, and he's a Jesuit priest, which is a Catholic order probably best known for being intellectuals. They care a lot about education. They travel around the world. They believe a lot in social justice. And even though the hierarchy isn't necessarily what interests him, he climbs the hierarchy.