Jennifer Selby Long

Sure. I think that often when people get together to have conversations about business or whatever it is that they're accountable for within a business, they talk about the goal that's passed, the things that seem very concrete and hard and in a plan. And then when one person believes that one thing is true and our other believes the other is true, they just start talking at each other.

Sure. I think that often when people get together to have conversations about business or whatever it is that they're accountable for within a business, they talk about the goal that's passed, the things that seem very concrete and hard and in a plan. And then when one person believes that one thing is true and our other believes the other is true, they just start talking at each other.

Instead of stepping back to say, wait a minute, it seemed like We're in conflict here. How many times have people done that in the business environment? Pretty rare to step back and say, it seems that we're in conflict with each other. Let's step back. Let's put ourselves in one another's shoes. Let's ask some more questions. Let's make sure we understand the situation.

Instead of stepping back to say, wait a minute, it seemed like We're in conflict here. How many times have people done that in the business environment? Pretty rare to step back and say, it seems that we're in conflict with each other. Let's step back. Let's put ourselves in one another's shoes. Let's ask some more questions. Let's make sure we understand the situation.

And I've had a number of early clients say, oh, I don't have time to do that. How much time are you wasting now on the political battles because you didn't step back and try to put yourself in the shoes of all of these other people and understand where they're coming from?

And I've had a number of early clients say, oh, I don't have time to do that. How much time are you wasting now on the political battles because you didn't step back and try to put yourself in the shoes of all of these other people and understand where they're coming from?

Check to make sure you actually understand where they're coming from and what's driving them because you're probably making some false assumptions about what that is. I can just about guarantee it. Are you stepping back to list the areas where you're in agreement? Probably not. Most people don't. As you start to work through these things, differing dialing is another one. Oh, my gosh.

Check to make sure you actually understand where they're coming from and what's driving them because you're probably making some false assumptions about what that is. I can just about guarantee it. Are you stepping back to list the areas where you're in agreement? Probably not. Most people don't. As you start to work through these things, differing dialing is another one. Oh, my gosh.

I've had teams that were leadership teams. See, you said we're just starting to backbite one another and get into a little bit of gamesmanship. And when we analyze the different styles on the team and we were able to step back objectively and look at that and say, can you come to some agreements here? on your behaviors because you all have naturally different styles.

I've had teams that were leadership teams. See, you said we're just starting to backbite one another and get into a little bit of gamesmanship. And when we analyze the different styles on the team and we were able to step back objectively and look at that and say, can you come to some agreements here? on your behaviors because you all have naturally different styles.

You're all coming in with naturally different assumptions about what it means to be on a team, what it means to communicate, what it means to commit. You all have different assumptions about what that looks like. And so stepping back to look at the style and do you have conflict that is really exacerbated by these different styles and the fact that you haven't talked about it out loud?

You're all coming in with naturally different assumptions about what it means to be on a team, what it means to communicate, what it means to commit. You all have different assumptions about what that looks like. And so stepping back to look at the style and do you have conflict that is really exacerbated by these different styles and the fact that you haven't talked about it out loud?

You've just frustrated one another. So start to work your way through this checklist of things. Eventually, what you come down to is the substance of what you don't agree on. And from there, then you can start to work through what that is. But it's often quite small compared to what it looks like because people are not taking the time to raise and deal with conflict.

You've just frustrated one another. So start to work your way through this checklist of things. Eventually, what you come down to is the substance of what you don't agree on. And from there, then you can start to work through what that is. But it's often quite small compared to what it looks like because people are not taking the time to raise and deal with conflict.

It's exacerbates the politics in the situation, right? Because it feeds...

It's exacerbates the politics in the situation, right? Because it feeds...

that lack of trust and where you know the lack of trust of course you're going to have more politics you're going to have much more of those power battles where you have more trust you're going to have less of that just because of human nature at the end of the day is about knowing yourselves and being intentional in choosing the workplace culture that fits your character and values

that lack of trust and where you know the lack of trust of course you're going to have more politics you're going to have much more of those power battles where you have more trust you're going to have less of that just because of human nature at the end of the day is about knowing yourselves and being intentional in choosing the workplace culture that fits your character and values

Yeah. You need to find the environment that is the best fit for you and for what you enjoy. I love your example of the person who said, yeah, we could probably be a lot more effective or successful if we had left from the political animal thing. But the reality was that was what that organization was like and he saw it. And so maybe that was not the right fit.

Yeah. You need to find the environment that is the best fit for you and for what you enjoy. I love your example of the person who said, yeah, we could probably be a lot more effective or successful if we had left from the political animal thing. But the reality was that was what that organization was like and he saw it. And so maybe that was not the right fit.

But maybe for someone who enjoyed that culture, it would be a great fit and they'd be pretty happy there. I do think what you said reminded me of So advice that is actually, it's not my own. It was from Martin Luther King's personal attorney, Clarence Jones. And he was part of the core group of activists who worked really closely with Dr. King.

But maybe for someone who enjoyed that culture, it would be a great fit and they'd be pretty happy there. I do think what you said reminded me of So advice that is actually, it's not my own. It was from Martin Luther King's personal attorney, Clarence Jones. And he was part of the core group of activists who worked really closely with Dr. King.

And I was super fortunate to hear him speak a number of years ago. Imagine your situation now. They have figured out that their movement is never going to get what it needs if they do not get a powerful white man from the South to align and to become an advocate. And that's gotta be something that was pretty painful for them to realize.

And I was super fortunate to hear him speak a number of years ago. Imagine your situation now. They have figured out that their movement is never going to get what it needs if they do not get a powerful white man from the South to align and to become an advocate. And that's gotta be something that was pretty painful for them to realize.

But the realization was there are no permanent friends and no permanent enemies, only permanent interests. So what are your interests? What are theirs? In this case, they figured out that they needed a stakeholder who was a powerful white, Southern net.

But the realization was there are no permanent friends and no permanent enemies, only permanent interests. So what are your interests? What are theirs? In this case, they figured out that they needed a stakeholder who was a powerful white, Southern net.

In your case, you might find that your personal interests and the personal interests of a firm that has that more intensely competitive political culture are aligned or are not aligned, right? What are your interests? What are their interests when assessing the environment that you're in and the ones you're considering?

In your case, you might find that your personal interests and the personal interests of a firm that has that more intensely competitive political culture are aligned or are not aligned, right? What are your interests? What are their interests when assessing the environment that you're in and the ones you're considering?

Get really clear on your own interests or values that are fundamentally unchanging and core. Your deep interests, right? The deep things that are who you are, not the more superficial current interests like I need to make this much money to, I don't know, pay my mortgage.

Get really clear on your own interests or values that are fundamentally unchanging and core. Your deep interests, right? The deep things that are who you are, not the more superficial current interests like I need to make this much money to, I don't know, pay my mortgage.

The second thing he said is you will not prevail unless the powerful majority sees that what you want is also in their interests. And I do think sometimes what looks like intense politics is actually just misaligned interests. The powerful majority and your interests are not. They don't go together. Right. Looking at who stands to lose.

The second thing he said is you will not prevail unless the powerful majority sees that what you want is also in their interests. And I do think sometimes what looks like intense politics is actually just misaligned interests. The powerful majority and your interests are not. They don't go together. Right. Looking at who stands to lose.

If you win, if it's a whole lot of people, that's going to be a highly political environment. Right. But if you can help people. those people to not lose money, to not lose space, to not lose if you prevail.

If you win, if it's a whole lot of people, that's going to be a highly political environment. Right. But if you can help people. those people to not lose money, to not lose space, to not lose if you prevail.

If you can find a way that it could make it a win or a benefit to at least some degree for everyone involved, particularly if you're in a leadership role, that could give you a wonderful outcome where you don't have to make a dramatic change. What can you offer to these others? How can you align what you want with their interests and vice versa?

If you can find a way that it could make it a win or a benefit to at least some degree for everyone involved, particularly if you're in a leadership role, that could give you a wonderful outcome where you don't have to make a dramatic change. What can you offer to these others? How can you align what you want with their interests and vice versa?

And I will say sometimes the best outcome involves someone getting what they want, even if they don't deserve it, if it still gives you the outcome that you want.

And I will say sometimes the best outcome involves someone getting what they want, even if they don't deserve it, if it still gives you the outcome that you want.

And to use sort of your painful example, if you leave because your boss was particularly unfair to you, they might get what they want and they don't deserve it, but they get the headcount reduction that you would say they don't deserve, but just try to let it go. If it gets you the outcome that you want, what you really want is to move on to somewhere else.

And to use sort of your painful example, if you leave because your boss was particularly unfair to you, they might get what they want and they don't deserve it, but they get the headcount reduction that you would say they don't deserve, but just try to let it go. If it gets you the outcome that you want, what you really want is to move on to somewhere else.

And identify, you absolutely must identify the strongest ally from the powerful majority and make him or her a leader in whatever your cause is if you're going to stay. Because you don't want to stay and be constantly feeling like you're swimming upstream and can't win. You've got to find your strongest ally and get that person a leader in what it is that you want there.

And identify, you absolutely must identify the strongest ally from the powerful majority and make him or her a leader in whatever your cause is if you're going to stay. Because you don't want to stay and be constantly feeling like you're swimming upstream and can't win. You've got to find your strongest ally and get that person a leader in what it is that you want there.

You actually can read my summary of Parents Jones' talk on our website if you just go to selbygroup.com and you search for politics. Really, I thought one of the most interesting and powerful speakers I've ever heard in terms of connecting that deep personal passion and desire with just that practical reality of politics.

You actually can read my summary of Parents Jones' talk on our website if you just go to selbygroup.com and you search for politics. Really, I thought one of the most interesting and powerful speakers I've ever heard in terms of connecting that deep personal passion and desire with just that practical reality of politics.

Yeah, I think it's a great question because it is very much our current situation for many businesses. And I wish the answer were super simple. It's not quite as simple as I wish it were because it does depend a little bit on your situation. In the hybrid work model, are people going into the office to just work on their own work?

Yeah, I think it's a great question because it is very much our current situation for many businesses. And I wish the answer were super simple. It's not quite as simple as I wish it were because it does depend a little bit on your situation. In the hybrid work model, are people going into the office to just work on their own work?

If so, I'm not sure you're going to get huge benefit out of that in terms of lessening politics or political alliances because they're not really interacting that much. Nor do I think you're going to get, you know, much of the benefit of obviously of working on very complex problems together if you're not really there to work together.

If so, I'm not sure you're going to get huge benefit out of that in terms of lessening politics or political alliances because they're not really interacting that much. Nor do I think you're going to get, you know, much of the benefit of obviously of working on very complex problems together if you're not really there to work together.

The other particular challenge I'll play you in is most of the clients that we work with are distributed not throughout one metropolitan area, but across the globe. And so... Sure, if your team is largely local and you can get together fairly regularly with intention, with the purpose of working on complex problems, right? Coming to very challenging agreements together.

The other particular challenge I'll play you in is most of the clients that we work with are distributed not throughout one metropolitan area, but across the globe. And so... Sure, if your team is largely local and you can get together fairly regularly with intention, with the purpose of working on complex problems, right? Coming to very challenging agreements together.

Sure, you want to do that in person. You are going to get a better result. But if your team is distributed around the globe, I would question how much significant benefit there would be to going into an office. You would all just be in different offices.

Sure, you want to do that in person. You are going to get a better result. But if your team is distributed around the globe, I would question how much significant benefit there would be to going into an office. You would all just be in different offices.

So I think you really have to look at being incredibly purposeful for when you get together and to work on the tough stuff when you are together and not just simply trust that everything The fact that you can have a lunchtime conversation in and of itself is going to be enough.

So I think you really have to look at being incredibly purposeful for when you get together and to work on the tough stuff when you are together and not just simply trust that everything The fact that you can have a lunchtime conversation in and of itself is going to be enough.

In fact, one of my clients is working on what they call more a sense of belonging or connectedness across their very global organization. And they're experimenting with all kinds of things to help build more of that personal trust. I'll let you know how those experiments go across time because this is a significant challenge. People who are lonely at work and don't feel connected.

In fact, one of my clients is working on what they call more a sense of belonging or connectedness across their very global organization. And they're experimenting with all kinds of things to help build more of that personal trust. I'll let you know how those experiments go across time because this is a significant challenge. People who are lonely at work and don't feel connected.

It's a big problem. It's a big problem in a lot of places. It causes a lot of additional problems. And from my point of view, it feeds notions of politics because there are people who feel connected and people who don't feel connected. And if you feel more connected, you're going to be more of an insider, right?

It's a big problem. It's a big problem in a lot of places. It causes a lot of additional problems. And from my point of view, it feeds notions of politics because there are people who feel connected and people who don't feel connected. And if you feel more connected, you're going to be more of an insider, right?

You're going to have more of an understanding of the political dynamic and the needs of other people. So I think that this is one we need to keep observing, assessing, and experimenting with across time. It's a super new way to work when you look at how very many years people work together in person. And it's really only been the last few where the majority do not work together in person.

You're going to have more of an understanding of the political dynamic and the needs of other people. So I think that this is one we need to keep observing, assessing, and experimenting with across time. It's a super new way to work when you look at how very many years people work together in person. And it's really only been the last few where the majority do not work together in person.

Yeah. And if you notice this pattern consistently with your boss, I would say this is where you do have to really step back and navigate for yourself. Go out into the future 10 or 20 years and look back on the current situation. And ask yourself truly in your heart, what is most important here?

Yeah. And if you notice this pattern consistently with your boss, I would say this is where you do have to really step back and navigate for yourself. Go out into the future 10 or 20 years and look back on the current situation. And ask yourself truly in your heart, what is most important here?

Because in that situation, maybe there's one employee who has two little kids to support and they go, what's most important is they keep my job for the kid. And so I'm just gonna, I'm gonna stay, right? Even though it means that I'm gonna have to carry some of the workload for others. And someone else might be in a situation where they're going,

Because in that situation, maybe there's one employee who has two little kids to support and they go, what's most important is they keep my job for the kid. And so I'm just gonna, I'm gonna stay, right? Even though it means that I'm gonna have to carry some of the workload for others. And someone else might be in a situation where they're going,

No, the most important thing is for me to go find an environment where the leadership is not threatened by me and where I can really flourish. I would never, as a coach, tell someone which of those choices is the right choice because it's whatever is the right choice for you and what you need to do, looking at your situation and looking in your heart.

No, the most important thing is for me to go find an environment where the leadership is not threatened by me and where I can really flourish. I would never, as a coach, tell someone which of those choices is the right choice because it's whatever is the right choice for you and what you need to do, looking at your situation and looking in your heart.

Because if you find a consistent pattern where the boss is just simply easily threatened by the stronger performers, That is what it is, right? There is not necessarily a lot that you can do to influence that. Not in a real significant way, not from where you sit as an employee. Exactly.

Because if you find a consistent pattern where the boss is just simply easily threatened by the stronger performers, That is what it is, right? There is not necessarily a lot that you can do to influence that. Not in a real significant way, not from where you sit as an employee. Exactly.

Yeah, absolutely. It's one of the reasons that I think it is so important for leaders to not just somehow think we aligned on our goals and now we just march forward because goals are pretty dynamic, right? And the different pressures that businesses are under change as markets change, as the geopolitical environment changes, you need to stay well-seeked up and well-aligned as a leadership team.

Yeah, absolutely. It's one of the reasons that I think it is so important for leaders to not just somehow think we aligned on our goals and now we just march forward because goals are pretty dynamic, right? And the different pressures that businesses are under change as markets change, as the geopolitical environment changes, you need to stay well-seeked up and well-aligned as a leadership team.

or you're going to be giving differing direction to the people who work for you. And then those people will find themselves at loggerheads and starting to do some infighting with one another, in part because you did not stay aligned at that higher level. And really, also, I would say of great significance, didn't learn how to raise and address conflict in a way that was healthy and effective.

or you're going to be giving differing direction to the people who work for you. And then those people will find themselves at loggerheads and starting to do some infighting with one another, in part because you did not stay aligned at that higher level. And really, also, I would say of great significance, didn't learn how to raise and address conflict in a way that was healthy and effective.

Yeah, we could probably eliminate a good chunk of politics by just improving the ability to raise and resolve conflict in a healthy way.

Yeah, we could probably eliminate a good chunk of politics by just improving the ability to raise and resolve conflict in a healthy way.

Sure. I think that often when people get together to have conversations about business or whatever it is that they're accountable for within a business, they talk about the goal that's passed, the things that seem very concrete and hard and in a plan. And then when one person believes that one thing is true and another believes the other is true, they just start talking at each other.

Sure. I think that often when people get together to have conversations about business or whatever it is that they're accountable for within a business, they talk about the goal that's passed, the things that seem very concrete and hard and in a plan. And then when one person believes that one thing is true and another believes the other is true, they just start talking at each other.

Instead of stepping back to say, wait a minute, it seemed like we're in conflict here. How many times have people done that in the business environment? Pretty rare. To step back and say, it seems that we're in conflict with each other. Let's step back. Let's put ourselves in one another's shoes. Let's ask some more questions. Let's make sure we understand the situation.

Instead of stepping back to say, wait a minute, it seemed like we're in conflict here. How many times have people done that in the business environment? Pretty rare. To step back and say, it seems that we're in conflict with each other. Let's step back. Let's put ourselves in one another's shoes. Let's ask some more questions. Let's make sure we understand the situation.

And I've had a number of early clients say, oh, I don't have time to do that. How much time are you wasting now on the political battles because you didn't step back and try to put yourself in the shoes of all of these other people and understand where they're coming from?

And I've had a number of early clients say, oh, I don't have time to do that. How much time are you wasting now on the political battles because you didn't step back and try to put yourself in the shoes of all of these other people and understand where they're coming from?

Check to make sure you actually understand where they're coming from and what's driving them because you're probably making some false assumptions about what that is. I can just about guarantee it. Are you stepping back to list the areas where you're in agreement? Probably not. Most people don't. As you start to work through these things, differing dialing is another one.

Check to make sure you actually understand where they're coming from and what's driving them because you're probably making some false assumptions about what that is. I can just about guarantee it. Are you stepping back to list the areas where you're in agreement? Probably not. Most people don't. As you start to work through these things, differing dialing is another one.

Oh my gosh, I've had teams that were leadership teams. See, you said we're just starting to backbite one another and get into a little bit of gamesmanship. And when we analyze the different styles on the team and we were able to step back objectively and look at that and say, can you come to some agreements? on your behaviors? Because you all have naturally different styles.

Oh my gosh, I've had teams that were leadership teams. See, you said we're just starting to backbite one another and get into a little bit of gamesmanship. And when we analyze the different styles on the team and we were able to step back objectively and look at that and say, can you come to some agreements? on your behaviors? Because you all have naturally different styles.

You're all coming in with naturally different assumptions about what it means to be on a team, what it means to communicate, what it means to commit. You all have different assumptions about what that looks like. And so stepping back to look at the style and do you have conflict that is really exacerbated by these different styles and the fact that you haven't talked about it out loud?

You're all coming in with naturally different assumptions about what it means to be on a team, what it means to communicate, what it means to commit. You all have different assumptions about what that looks like. And so stepping back to look at the style and do you have conflict that is really exacerbated by these different styles and the fact that you haven't talked about it out loud?

You've just frustrated one another. So as you start to work your way through this checklist of things, eventually what you come down to is the substance of what you don't agree on. And from there, then you can start to work through what that is. But it's often quite small compared to what it looks like because people are not taking the time to raise and deal with conflict.

You've just frustrated one another. So as you start to work your way through this checklist of things, eventually what you come down to is the substance of what you don't agree on. And from there, then you can start to work through what that is. But it's often quite small compared to what it looks like because people are not taking the time to raise and deal with conflict.

It's exacerbates the politics in the situation, right? Because it feeds... That lack of trust. And where you know the lack of trust, of course, you're going to have more politics. You're going to have much more of those power battles. Where you have more trust, you're going to have less of that. Just because of human nature.

It's exacerbates the politics in the situation, right? Because it feeds... That lack of trust. And where you know the lack of trust, of course, you're going to have more politics. You're going to have much more of those power battles. Where you have more trust, you're going to have less of that. Just because of human nature.

Yeah. You need to find the environment that is the best fit for you and for what you enjoy. I love your example of the person who said, yeah, we could probably be a lot more effective or successful if we had left from the political animal thing. But the reality was that was what that organization was like and he saw it. And so maybe that was not the right fit.

Yeah. You need to find the environment that is the best fit for you and for what you enjoy. I love your example of the person who said, yeah, we could probably be a lot more effective or successful if we had left from the political animal thing. But the reality was that was what that organization was like and he saw it. And so maybe that was not the right fit.

But maybe for someone who enjoyed that culture, it would be a great fit and they'd be pretty happy there. I do think what you said reminded me of The advice that is actually, it's not my own. It was from Martin Luther King's personal attorney, Clarence Jones. And he was part of the core group of activists who worked really closely with Dr. King.

But maybe for someone who enjoyed that culture, it would be a great fit and they'd be pretty happy there. I do think what you said reminded me of The advice that is actually, it's not my own. It was from Martin Luther King's personal attorney, Clarence Jones. And he was part of the core group of activists who worked really closely with Dr. King.

And I was super fortunate to hear him speak a number of years ago. Imagine your situation now. They have figured out that their movement is never going to get what it needs if they do not get a powerful white man from the South to align and to become an advocate. And that's got to be something that was pretty painful for them to realize.

And I was super fortunate to hear him speak a number of years ago. Imagine your situation now. They have figured out that their movement is never going to get what it needs if they do not get a powerful white man from the South to align and to become an advocate. And that's got to be something that was pretty painful for them to realize.

But the realization was there are no permanent friends and no permanent enemies, only permanent interests. So what are your interests? What are theirs? Well, in this case, they figured out that they needed a stakeholder who was a powerful white Theternet.

But the realization was there are no permanent friends and no permanent enemies, only permanent interests. So what are your interests? What are theirs? Well, in this case, they figured out that they needed a stakeholder who was a powerful white Theternet.

In your case, you might find that your personal interests and the personal interests of a firm that has that more intensely competitive political culture are aligned or not aligned, right? What are your interests? What are their interests when assessing the environment that you're in and the ones you're considering?

In your case, you might find that your personal interests and the personal interests of a firm that has that more intensely competitive political culture are aligned or not aligned, right? What are your interests? What are their interests when assessing the environment that you're in and the ones you're considering?

Get really clear on your own interests or values that are fundamentally unchanging and core. Your deep interests, right? The deep things that are who you are, not the more superficial current interests like I need to make this much money to, I don't know, pay my mortgage.

Get really clear on your own interests or values that are fundamentally unchanging and core. Your deep interests, right? The deep things that are who you are, not the more superficial current interests like I need to make this much money to, I don't know, pay my mortgage.

The second thing he said is you will not prevail unless the powerful majority sees that what you want is also in their interests.

The second thing he said is you will not prevail unless the powerful majority sees that what you want is also in their interests.

and i do think sometimes what looks like intense politics is actually just the flying interest the powerful majority and your interests are not they don't go together right looking at who stands to lose if you win if it's a whole lot of people that's going to be a highly political environment right but if you can Help those people to not lose money, to not lose space, to not lose if you prevail.

and i do think sometimes what looks like intense politics is actually just the flying interest the powerful majority and your interests are not they don't go together right looking at who stands to lose if you win if it's a whole lot of people that's going to be a highly political environment right but if you can Help those people to not lose money, to not lose space, to not lose if you prevail.

If you can find a way that it could make it a win or a benefit to at least some degree for everyone involved, particularly if you're in a leadership role, that could give you a wonderful outcome where you don't have to make a dramatic change. What can you offer to these folks? How can you align what you want with their interests and vice versa?

If you can find a way that it could make it a win or a benefit to at least some degree for everyone involved, particularly if you're in a leadership role, that could give you a wonderful outcome where you don't have to make a dramatic change. What can you offer to these folks? How can you align what you want with their interests and vice versa?

And I will say sometimes the best outcome involves someone getting what they want, even if they don't deserve it, if it still gives you the outcome that you want. And to use sort of your painful example, if you leave because your boss was particularly unfair to you, they might get what they want and they don't deserve it, but they get the headcount reduction that you would say they don't deserve.

And I will say sometimes the best outcome involves someone getting what they want, even if they don't deserve it, if it still gives you the outcome that you want. And to use sort of your painful example, if you leave because your boss was particularly unfair to you, they might get what they want and they don't deserve it, but they get the headcount reduction that you would say they don't deserve.

But just try to let it go. If it gets you the outcome that you want, what you really want is to move on to somewhere else. And identify, you absolutely must identify the strongest ally from the powerful majority and make him or her a leader in whatever your cause is if you're going to stay. Because you don't want to stay and be constantly feeling like you're swimming upstream and can't win.

But just try to let it go. If it gets you the outcome that you want, what you really want is to move on to somewhere else. And identify, you absolutely must identify the strongest ally from the powerful majority and make him or her a leader in whatever your cause is if you're going to stay. Because you don't want to stay and be constantly feeling like you're swimming upstream and can't win.

You've got to find your strongest ally and get that person a leader in what it is that you want there. You actually can read my summary of Parents Jones' talk on our website if you just go to selbygroup.com and you search for politics.

You've got to find your strongest ally and get that person a leader in what it is that you want there. You actually can read my summary of Parents Jones' talk on our website if you just go to selbygroup.com and you search for politics.

Really, one of the most interesting and powerful speakers I've ever heard in terms of connecting that deep personal passion and desire with just that practical reality of politics.

Really, one of the most interesting and powerful speakers I've ever heard in terms of connecting that deep personal passion and desire with just that practical reality of politics.

Yeah, I think it's a great question because it is very much our current situation for many businesses. And I wish the answer were super simple. It's not quite as simple as I wish it were because it does depend a little bit on your situation. So, In the hybrid work model, are people going into the office to just work on their own work?

Yeah, I think it's a great question because it is very much our current situation for many businesses. And I wish the answer were super simple. It's not quite as simple as I wish it were because it does depend a little bit on your situation. So, In the hybrid work model, are people going into the office to just work on their own work?

If so, I'm not sure you're going to get huge benefit out of that in terms of lessening politics or political alliances because they're not really interacting that much. Nor do I think you're going to get, you know, much of the benefit of obviously of working on very complex problems together if you're not really there to work together.

If so, I'm not sure you're going to get huge benefit out of that in terms of lessening politics or political alliances because they're not really interacting that much. Nor do I think you're going to get, you know, much of the benefit of obviously of working on very complex problems together if you're not really there to work together.

The other particular challenge I'll play you in is most of the clients that we work with are distributed not throughout one metropolitan area, but across the globe. And so... Sure, if your team is largely local and you can get together fairly regularly with intention, with the purpose of working on complex problems, right? Coming to very challenging agreements together.

The other particular challenge I'll play you in is most of the clients that we work with are distributed not throughout one metropolitan area, but across the globe. And so... Sure, if your team is largely local and you can get together fairly regularly with intention, with the purpose of working on complex problems, right? Coming to very challenging agreements together.

Sure, you want to do that in person. You are going to get a better result. But if your team is distributed around the globe, I would question how much significant benefit there would be to going into an office. You would all just be in different offices.

Sure, you want to do that in person. You are going to get a better result. But if your team is distributed around the globe, I would question how much significant benefit there would be to going into an office. You would all just be in different offices.

So I think you really have to look at being incredibly purposeful for when you get together and to work on the talk stuff when you are together and not just simply trust that. The fact that you can have a lunchtime conversation in and of itself is going to be a nod.

So I think you really have to look at being incredibly purposeful for when you get together and to work on the talk stuff when you are together and not just simply trust that. The fact that you can have a lunchtime conversation in and of itself is going to be a nod.

In fact, one of my clients is working on what they call more a sense of belonging or connectedness across their very global organization. And they're experimenting with all kinds of things to help build more of that personal trust. I'll let you know how those experiments go across time, because this is a significant challenge. People who are lonely at work and don't feel connected.

In fact, one of my clients is working on what they call more a sense of belonging or connectedness across their very global organization. And they're experimenting with all kinds of things to help build more of that personal trust. I'll let you know how those experiments go across time, because this is a significant challenge. People who are lonely at work and don't feel connected.

It's a big problem. It's a big problem in a lot of places. It causes a lot of additional problems. And from my point of view, it feeds notions of politics because there are people who feel connected and people who don't feel connected. And if you feel more connected, you're going to be more of an insider, right?

It's a big problem. It's a big problem in a lot of places. It causes a lot of additional problems. And from my point of view, it feeds notions of politics because there are people who feel connected and people who don't feel connected. And if you feel more connected, you're going to be more of an insider, right?

You're going to have more of an understanding of the political dynamic and the needs of other people. So I think that this is one we need to keep observing, assessing, and experimenting with across time. It's a super new way to work when you look at how very many years people work together in person. And it's really only been the last few where the majority do not work together in person.

You're going to have more of an understanding of the political dynamic and the needs of other people. So I think that this is one we need to keep observing, assessing, and experimenting with across time. It's a super new way to work when you look at how very many years people work together in person. And it's really only been the last few where the majority do not work together in person.

Yeah. And if you notice this pattern insistently with your boss, I would say this is where you do have to really step back and navigate for yourself. Go out into the future 10 or 20 years and look back on the current situation. And ask yourself truly in your heart, what is most important here?

Yeah. And if you notice this pattern insistently with your boss, I would say this is where you do have to really step back and navigate for yourself. Go out into the future 10 or 20 years and look back on the current situation. And ask yourself truly in your heart, what is most important here?

Because in that situation, maybe there's one employee who has two little kids to support and they go, what's most important is they keep my job for the kid. And so I'm just gonna, I'm gonna stay, right? Even though it means that I'm gonna have to carry some of the workload for others. And someone else might be in a situation where they're going,

Because in that situation, maybe there's one employee who has two little kids to support and they go, what's most important is they keep my job for the kid. And so I'm just gonna, I'm gonna stay, right? Even though it means that I'm gonna have to carry some of the workload for others. And someone else might be in a situation where they're going,

No, the most important thing is for me to go find an environment where the leadership is not threatened by me and where I can really flourish. I would never, as a coach, tell someone which of those choices is the right choice because it's whatever is the right choice for you and what you need to do, looking at your situation and looking in your heart.

No, the most important thing is for me to go find an environment where the leadership is not threatened by me and where I can really flourish. I would never, as a coach, tell someone which of those choices is the right choice because it's whatever is the right choice for you and what you need to do, looking at your situation and looking in your heart.

Because if you find a consistent pattern where the boss is just simply easily threatened by the stronger performers, That is what it is, right? There is not necessarily a lot that you can do to influence that. Not in a real significant way, not from where you sit as an employee. Exactly.

Because if you find a consistent pattern where the boss is just simply easily threatened by the stronger performers, That is what it is, right? There is not necessarily a lot that you can do to influence that. Not in a real significant way, not from where you sit as an employee. Exactly.

Yeah, absolutely. It's one of the reasons that I think it is so important for leaders to not just somehow think we aligned on our goals and now we just march forward because goals are pretty dynamic, right? And the different pressures that businesses are under change as markets change, as the geopolitical environment changes, you need to stay well-seeked up and well-aligned as a leadership team.

Yeah, absolutely. It's one of the reasons that I think it is so important for leaders to not just somehow think we aligned on our goals and now we just march forward because goals are pretty dynamic, right? And the different pressures that businesses are under change as markets change, as the geopolitical environment changes, you need to stay well-seeked up and well-aligned as a leadership team.

or you're going to be giving differing direction to the people who work for you. And then those people will find themselves at loggerheads and starting to do some infighting with one another, in part because you did not stay aligned at that higher level. And really, also, I would say of great significance, didn't learn how to raise and address conflict in a way that was healthy and effective.

or you're going to be giving differing direction to the people who work for you. And then those people will find themselves at loggerheads and starting to do some infighting with one another, in part because you did not stay aligned at that higher level. And really, also, I would say of great significance, didn't learn how to raise and address conflict in a way that was healthy and effective.

Yeah, we could probably eliminate a good chunk of politics by just improving the ability to raise and resolve conflict in a healthy way.

Yeah, we could probably eliminate a good chunk of politics by just improving the ability to raise and resolve conflict in a healthy way.

And so say, I'm really curious. I wonder why... someone would think that would produce a good result. I wonder why someone would behave in that way. I wonder what's going on with them. I wonder what kind of a situation they're in. I wonder what they've been instructed in.

And so say, I'm really curious. I wonder why... someone would think that would produce a good result. I wonder why someone would behave in that way. I wonder what's going on with them. I wonder what kind of a situation they're in. I wonder what they've been instructed in.

And continuing to just stay in this curious mode could give you some insights into the interests of these various people in power. And then you need to look at how are your interests aligned with the interests of these people in power. Right. And if you do have interests that are aligned with some of these people in power, that's when you need to find yourself an ally among those other people.

And continuing to just stay in this curious mode could give you some insights into the interests of these various people in power. And then you need to look at how are your interests aligned with the interests of these people in power. Right. And if you do have interests that are aligned with some of these people in power, that's when you need to find yourself an ally among those other people.

And get that person to become a co-leader with you in whatever it is that you want to happen, whatever change it is that you want to happen. That's not just someone who says they agree with you, but someone who would step up, put some skin in the game, co-lead with you. Someone who would get as much credit as you get for maybe solving the problem that people were in a power struggle over.

And get that person to become a co-leader with you in whatever it is that you want to happen, whatever change it is that you want to happen. That's not just someone who says they agree with you, but someone who would step up, put some skin in the game, co-lead with you. Someone who would get as much credit as you get for maybe solving the problem that people were in a power struggle over.

And maybe that person will get even more credit I put myself in situations like that. Even though it's not particularly fair, if it does help to break down those power dynamics, having that ally who is really a co-leader is pretty important. Stay focused on the outcome that you want and the interests and needs of the people involved.

And maybe that person will get even more credit I put myself in situations like that. Even though it's not particularly fair, if it does help to break down those power dynamics, having that ally who is really a co-leader is pretty important. Stay focused on the outcome that you want and the interests and needs of the people involved.

That's really the last real ongoing thing in that little process. approach that I've recommended because the interest and the needs of yourself and the others are what drives really just about everyone's behavior. And staying attuned to those becomes pretty vital to lessening the power struggles, right? And to keeping them at bay over the long time. I think we talked a little bit about how

That's really the last real ongoing thing in that little process. approach that I've recommended because the interest and the needs of yourself and the others are what drives really just about everyone's behavior. And staying attuned to those becomes pretty vital to lessening the power struggles, right? And to keeping them at bay over the long time. I think we talked a little bit about how

Sometimes very sort of average people seem to excel in these environments that are politically charged. And one of the surprising reasons is there's maybe 25 to 35 percent of the general population that has a natural temperament that's just generally not bothered as much by political issues.

Sometimes very sort of average people seem to excel in these environments that are politically charged. And one of the surprising reasons is there's maybe 25 to 35 percent of the general population that has a natural temperament that's just generally not bothered as much by political issues.

clashes they just aren't they're just they just naturally get very interested in quickly assessing the situation figuring out how to get to the goal and i would imagine those people aren't even listening to this podcast they're not even interested in it and so there are some people who are just they're built in a way that they just have a natural buffer against it so sometimes someone might look very i don't know cold to you if you're bothered by the power struggles that are underway

clashes they just aren't they're just they just naturally get very interested in quickly assessing the situation figuring out how to get to the goal and i would imagine those people aren't even listening to this podcast they're not even interested in it and so there are some people who are just they're built in a way that they just have a natural buffer against it so sometimes someone might look very i don't know cold to you if you're bothered by the power struggles that are underway

because they're not particularly bothered by them, that stuff doesn't really trouble them too much. But they seem to do fine and not be troubled by that. In fact, I think I mentioned in our last conversation, Vince, about a client who came in, first time C-suite executive, walked into, and not the senior of C-suite, the next level down. So he walked in

because they're not particularly bothered by them, that stuff doesn't really trouble them too much. But they seem to do fine and not be troubled by that. In fact, I think I mentioned in our last conversation, Vince, about a client who came in, first time C-suite executive, walked into, and not the senior of C-suite, the next level down. So he walked in

to this brand new role in a different industry. And he found that he was in the middle of a colossal political battle that he had found with Thunderwood. It only annoyed or troubled him to the extent that it triggered him being a little judgmental. And so all we really worked on was keeping that judge at bay and bringing forward his best self so that he could just step back.

to this brand new role in a different industry. And he found that he was in the middle of a colossal political battle that he had found with Thunderwood. It only annoyed or troubled him to the extent that it triggered him being a little judgmental. And so all we really worked on was keeping that judge at bay and bringing forward his best self so that he could just step back.

empathize with all of the people involved and navigate to a solution that was a win and very much the win that his organization needed in terms of budget in particular for more headcount. His people were grossly overworked and he was able to do that.

empathize with all of the people involved and navigate to a solution that was a win and very much the win that his organization needed in terms of budget in particular for more headcount. His people were grossly overworked and he was able to do that.

And to this day, in that same organization, probably four out of five clients there will periodically sigh and complain to me, oh, wow, it is a densely political environment, but it doesn't faze him at all. He's just naturally built in a way that's not going to work too much. So I think in my tips that I just gave, to some extent, I've dissected the way those people do think and behave.

And to this day, in that same organization, probably four out of five clients there will periodically sigh and complain to me, oh, wow, it is a densely political environment, but it doesn't faze him at all. He's just naturally built in a way that's not going to work too much. So I think in my tips that I just gave, to some extent, I've dissected the way those people do think and behave.

Yeah, I think it's a great question because it is very much our current situation for many businesses. And I wish the answer were super simple. It's not quite as simple as I wish it were because it does depend a little bit on your situation. In the hybrid work model, are people going into the office to just work on their own work?

Yeah, I think it's a great question because it is very much our current situation for many businesses. And I wish the answer were super simple. It's not quite as simple as I wish it were because it does depend a little bit on your situation. In the hybrid work model, are people going into the office to just work on their own work?

If so, I'm not sure you're going to get huge benefit out of that in terms of lessening politics or political alliances because they're not really interacting that much. Nor do I think you're going to get much of the benefit of obviously of working on very complex problems together if you're not really there to work together.

If so, I'm not sure you're going to get huge benefit out of that in terms of lessening politics or political alliances because they're not really interacting that much. Nor do I think you're going to get much of the benefit of obviously of working on very complex problems together if you're not really there to work together.

The other particular challenge I'll play you with is most of the clients that we work with are distributed not throughout one metropolitan area, but across the globe. People who are lonely at work and don't feel connected. It's a big problem. It's a big problem in a lot of places. It causes a lot of additional problems.

The other particular challenge I'll play you with is most of the clients that we work with are distributed not throughout one metropolitan area, but across the globe. People who are lonely at work and don't feel connected. It's a big problem. It's a big problem in a lot of places. It causes a lot of additional problems.

And from my point of view, it feeds notions of politics because there are people who feel connected and people who don't feel connected. So I think that this is one we need to keep observing, assessing and experimenting with. across time. It's a super new way to work when you look at how very many years people work together in person.

And from my point of view, it feeds notions of politics because there are people who feel connected and people who don't feel connected. So I think that this is one we need to keep observing, assessing and experimenting with. across time. It's a super new way to work when you look at how very many years people work together in person.

And it's really only been the last few where the majority do not work together in person.

And it's really only been the last few where the majority do not work together in person.

I think it's a very fair and valid question. Why do they exist and what are those factors that contribute to the prevalence of politics in our modern workplaces? In my practice, what I see are two main reasons that office politics exist. The first one is failure to build trust and cohesion, which is, if you will, the subjective or personal reason.

I think it's a very fair and valid question. Why do they exist and what are those factors that contribute to the prevalence of politics in our modern workplaces? In my practice, what I see are two main reasons that office politics exist. The first one is failure to build trust and cohesion, which is, if you will, the subjective or personal reason.

And the second one's failure to align on strategy or strategic direction, which is more the business side. I do think politics are part of a human condition, and they always have been.

And the second one's failure to align on strategy or strategic direction, which is more the business side. I do think politics are part of a human condition, and they always have been.

Now, there is a newer factor that I think contributes today, and that's the global and virtual nature of many businesses combined with what I'm going to boldly call a certain willful blindness on the part of nearly everyone to accept some of the hard realities and trade-offs of that situation or condition.

Now, there is a newer factor that I think contributes today, and that's the global and virtual nature of many businesses combined with what I'm going to boldly call a certain willful blindness on the part of nearly everyone to accept some of the hard realities and trade-offs of that situation or condition.

So fundamentally, what we know is even in today's more virtual environment, people who need to make difficult decisions together in a complex business environment actually need to be together in person far more often than most of us realize. So the resistance to this comes from both employees who've now gotten used to working at home.

So fundamentally, what we know is even in today's more virtual environment, people who need to make difficult decisions together in a complex business environment actually need to be together in person far more often than most of us realize. So the resistance to this comes from both employees who've now gotten used to working at home.

They're resisting traveling to get together for off sites, resisting coming to office locations to work together in person. And from senior leaders who went set that travel and entertainment budget that's going to be needed to bring people together who aren't in the same city. Certainly quite a bit more than once a year. Now, Vince, would you like a recent example? Yes, please.

They're resisting traveling to get together for off sites, resisting coming to office locations to work together in person. And from senior leaders who went set that travel and entertainment budget that's going to be needed to bring people together who aren't in the same city. Certainly quite a bit more than once a year. Now, Vince, would you like a recent example? Yes, please.

An example would be nice. A leadership team that I worked with over several years now, and they used to work together really well. In fact, when I first started working with them, we didn't even do any sort of team effectiveness assessment because I assessed informally this team is very effective. That's not what they need my help with.

An example would be nice. A leadership team that I worked with over several years now, and they used to work together really well. In fact, when I first started working with them, we didn't even do any sort of team effectiveness assessment because I assessed informally this team is very effective. That's not what they need my help with.

But as I watched them over the past year, they were beginning to feel threatened by each other. There was backbiting. There was bickering. There were power struggles among this team. And this became very concerning to me. Now, their membership had started to change a little bit. A key team member was leaving to retire.

But as I watched them over the past year, they were beginning to feel threatened by each other. There was backbiting. There was bickering. There were power struggles among this team. And this became very concerning to me. Now, their membership had started to change a little bit. A key team member was leaving to retire.

And their responsibilities at a team and the pressure on them had broadened considerably. They were leading a type of business transformation that had never been attempted before. And so... You've got to start asking what is going on here that this team is becoming, if you will, political. They're getting in these power struggles with each other and these battles.

And their responsibilities at a team and the pressure on them had broadened considerably. They were leading a type of business transformation that had never been attempted before. And so... You've got to start asking what is going on here that this team is becoming, if you will, political. They're getting in these power struggles with each other and these battles.

And this was rolling on down through the organization to where all the people in their organization were starting to complain and say, you seem to be battling with each other all the time. We're not ever sure quite what to do. You don't move as one anymore like you used to. In this situation, I really needed to get this team together in person to work through this.

And this was rolling on down through the organization to where all the people in their organization were starting to complain and say, you seem to be battling with each other all the time. We're not ever sure quite what to do. You don't move as one anymore like you used to. In this situation, I really needed to get this team together in person to work through this.

But the T&E budget had been slashed to basically zero in that organization. In my opinion, that was where we would call a penny wise and pound foolish decision.

But the T&E budget had been slashed to basically zero in that organization. In my opinion, that was where we would call a penny wise and pound foolish decision.

to cut those T&E budgets across the company because the team all agreed once we were able to get together to push hard for an exception to that T&E budget situation that we did the work that they really needed to do with a vigorous and proper assessment of what is going on, what is in the way, why has the team performance deteriorated, why were they in a split battle.

to cut those T&E budgets across the company because the team all agreed once we were able to get together to push hard for an exception to that T&E budget situation that we did the work that they really needed to do with a vigorous and proper assessment of what is going on, what is in the way, why has the team performance deteriorated, why were they in a split battle.

It was an incredibly powerful time that we spent together, but we all agreed it should have been six to nine months earlier. But there was this sort of resistance to make getting an exception to this T&E budget flash to getting on a plane to fly for this meeting. I do think the resistance comes from both sides, but one of the things that we do have to accept is

It was an incredibly powerful time that we spent together, but we all agreed it should have been six to nine months earlier. But there was this sort of resistance to make getting an exception to this T&E budget flash to getting on a plane to fly for this meeting. I do think the resistance comes from both sides, but one of the things that we do have to accept is

in today's more virtual, more global world is you might not feel like getting on that plane. I certainly know I don't at times, but you do need to make complex decisions together and you need to deal with team dynamics together in person.

in today's more virtual, more global world is you might not feel like getting on that plane. I certainly know I don't at times, but you do need to make complex decisions together and you need to deal with team dynamics together in person.

I really think most leadership teams probably need to be together at least once a quarter in person, despite the personal hardship and the extra cost associated with this. Now, I will say separately, I don't think that the cause or the contributions to politics are as simple as these little catchphrases like power corrupts. Because I see too many leaders who are not corrupted by power.

I really think most leadership teams probably need to be together at least once a quarter in person, despite the personal hardship and the extra cost associated with this. Now, I will say separately, I don't think that the cause or the contributions to politics are as simple as these little catchphrases like power corrupts. Because I see too many leaders who are not corrupted by power.

And I see too many ambitious people who maintain their ethics and integrity all the way up the ladder as they go. And so I don't believe in it as simple or as trite as something like power corrupt. Now, if what I'm saying sounds completely nightly to some of your listeners, I would say to those listeners most emphatically, you have been working at the wrong places, right?

And I see too many ambitious people who maintain their ethics and integrity all the way up the ladder as they go. And so I don't believe in it as simple or as trite as something like power corrupt. Now, if what I'm saying sounds completely nightly to some of your listeners, I would say to those listeners most emphatically, you have been working at the wrong places, right?

In 30-plus years, I've been coaching and advising leaders. I have a clear uncertainty around this. The majority of leaders are not political animals, if you will. In fact, some situations that seem political on the surface are not as political as they seem, but they're more a matter of... Complete lack of alignment around strategy and not dealing with that.

In 30-plus years, I've been coaching and advising leaders. I have a clear uncertainty around this. The majority of leaders are not political animals, if you will. In fact, some situations that seem political on the surface are not as political as they seem, but they're more a matter of... Complete lack of alignment around strategy and not dealing with that.

And some of that stems from people lacking any kind of understanding of how to resolve conflict effectively. Read other people's signals. Adapt to their needs. Read situations. Lead and inspire people to change. These are the more advanced interpersonal skills.

And some of that stems from people lacking any kind of understanding of how to resolve conflict effectively. Read other people's signals. Adapt to their needs. Read situations. Lead and inspire people to change. These are the more advanced interpersonal skills.

And I will say, certainly, if those are lacking at the top, it tends to trickle down as well and feed these power battles and these political dynamics. And does any of that sound familiar or make sense, Vince, from your point of view?

And I will say, certainly, if those are lacking at the top, it tends to trickle down as well and feed these power battles and these political dynamics. And does any of that sound familiar or make sense, Vince, from your point of view?

Yes, both actually. And it's interesting to build, for most businesses, to build a strong team, to build trust among that team, and to not have people competing against one another, but working together. against the competition, right? Directing their competitive myth there. We have ample evidence that for most businesses, that is the way to build your leadership team, right?

Yes, both actually. And it's interesting to build, for most businesses, to build a strong team, to build trust among that team, and to not have people competing against one another, but working together. against the competition, right? Directing their competitive myth there. We have ample evidence that for most businesses, that is the way to build your leadership team, right?

And not the way in which you're just looking at each person as a chess piece. And so at times in those situations, you may have someone who is in fact a narcissist, right? That is that thing that is beyond our control. You may have someone who learned that from a prior boss, from their schooling, from their family of origin.

And not the way in which you're just looking at each person as a chess piece. And so at times in those situations, you may have someone who is in fact a narcissist, right? That is that thing that is beyond our control. You may have someone who learned that from a prior boss, from their schooling, from their family of origin.

I still think a lot of leaders out there are running around with what I would consider to be an outdate notion of leadership, that it is somehow about results versus results. when what we see largely is that the stronger teams get the better results. And so the two are not holding, but in fact, the one enabled the other.

I still think a lot of leaders out there are running around with what I would consider to be an outdate notion of leadership, that it is somehow about results versus results. when what we see largely is that the stronger teams get the better results. And so the two are not holding, but in fact, the one enabled the other.

And so I can say, certainly I've had some clients who were pretty mercenary clients. When I first started working with them and they became some of the most dedicated and devoted clients in the long run, but I really had to crack them open or crack them over the head in a manner of speaking to get them to see this huge, quite naive disconnect that they were making between people and results. Yeah.

And so I can say, certainly I've had some clients who were pretty mercenary clients. When I first started working with them and they became some of the most dedicated and devoted clients in the long run, but I really had to crack them open or crack them over the head in a manner of speaking to get them to see this huge, quite naive disconnect that they were making between people and results. Yeah.

And so some of those folks have become some of our best clients and some of our highest performers over the years. Now, as far as what someone would want to do in a situation like that, if they're not, they believe that they're not contributing to these power dynamics, but they're just on the receiving end of them is a little bit different.

And so some of those folks have become some of our best clients and some of our highest performers over the years. Now, as far as what someone would want to do in a situation like that, if they're not, they believe that they're not contributing to these power dynamics, but they're just on the receiving end of them is a little bit different.

And that's where I think you do need to take a look at how you want to approach this. What is most important to you? I think there are five things that you really need to look at. And I think you want to do these more or less in sequence. The first one, interestingly, is to stop fighting. And you won't believe this, but stop venting to not solve problems.

And that's where I think you do need to take a look at how you want to approach this. What is most important to you? I think there are five things that you really need to look at. And I think you want to do these more or less in sequence. The first one, interestingly, is to stop fighting. And you won't believe this, but stop venting to not solve problems.

And in fact, staying in that mode of venting and complaining about a situation actually feeds the neural networks that don't resolve anything, right? It feeds the neural networks that are more survival-based, right? To keep you in that more survival-based mode. But actually staying in that mode doesn't help you to be a better problem solver, right?

And in fact, staying in that mode of venting and complaining about a situation actually feeds the neural networks that don't resolve anything, right? It feeds the neural networks that are more survival-based, right? To keep you in that more survival-based mode. But actually staying in that mode doesn't help you to be a better problem solver, right?

And if you think of politics as a problem to be solved like any other, you really need to get your brain going with every possible strength that it has. The second one is step back and analyze with a certain curiosity and even some empathy. Be curious about it versus frustrated by it. Even if you can only maintain that curiosity for a few minutes as an alternative to your frustration and anger.

And if you think of politics as a problem to be solved like any other, you really need to get your brain going with every possible strength that it has. The second one is step back and analyze with a certain curiosity and even some empathy. Be curious about it versus frustrated by it. Even if you can only maintain that curiosity for a few minutes as an alternative to your frustration and anger.

And the individual that person reported to, I guess you could say, was my core client. actually concluded that he needed to go find a better opportunity for this guy. Because this guy was absolutely not going to change in his own style to what was needed there. And he wasn't going to change in his fundamental beliefs about what the strategy should be of that division.

And the individual that person reported to, I guess you could say, was my core client. actually concluded that he needed to go find a better opportunity for this guy. Because this guy was absolutely not going to change in his own style to what was needed there. And he wasn't going to change in his fundamental beliefs about what the strategy should be of that division.

And I learned a lot from that, from watching him, because he was an extraordinary role model of... not letting that judge and that hyperachiever neural network drive you to do something stupid, right? Instead of trying to force this guy to go along or to try to butt heads with him endlessly, he saw that he had tried that and it didn't work.

And I learned a lot from that, from watching him, because he was an extraordinary role model of... not letting that judge and that hyperachiever neural network drive you to do something stupid, right? Instead of trying to force this guy to go along or to try to butt heads with him endlessly, he saw that he had tried that and it didn't work.

He actually went and advocated that this other man should head one of the most exciting new divisions that the company was creating. And this man did go over and do that. And he did lead that division in its early days quite well, because in part, he didn't need to change to lead that. He was already established. kind of reasonably well suited to it.

He actually went and advocated that this other man should head one of the most exciting new divisions that the company was creating. And this man did go over and do that. And he did lead that division in its early days quite well, because in part, he didn't need to change to lead that. He was already established. kind of reasonably well suited to it.

And so it was extremely enlightening to me because until my client made that decision and that commitment, we struggled. We really struggled. That team had been brought together through two acquisitions. That team was so far behind Vince.

And so it was extremely enlightening to me because until my client made that decision and that commitment, we struggled. We really struggled. That team had been brought together through two acquisitions. That team was so far behind Vince.

They actually had worked very hard on two software releases that they had to literally cast aside because they fell so far behind because they did not move as one that the other technology leapfrogged it and it no longer was appropriate, right? It no longer fit with the company's other technology. So this was an organization that was in crisis and it was when

They actually had worked very hard on two software releases that they had to literally cast aside because they fell so far behind because they did not move as one that the other technology leapfrogged it and it no longer was appropriate, right? It no longer fit with the company's other technology. So this was an organization that was in crisis and it was when

He was able to just recognize, hey, this is a failed exercise, right? We cannot bring this guy along to where we need to. And I'm going to stop trying. This was, by the way, about 20 years ago. And so I found myself really admiring and recognizing the joy of learning something about change from one of my own clients. Whereas usually I'm the one in the teacher's seat.

He was able to just recognize, hey, this is a failed exercise, right? We cannot bring this guy along to where we need to. And I'm going to stop trying. This was, by the way, about 20 years ago. And so I found myself really admiring and recognizing the joy of learning something about change from one of my own clients. Whereas usually I'm the one in the teacher's seat.

And I really learned deeply from that experience because me on that idealist, I never want to give up on anybody. And so it was so helpful for me to see someone willing to say, I think we need to give up on this.

And I really learned deeply from that experience because me on that idealist, I never want to give up on anybody. And so it was so helpful for me to see someone willing to say, I think we need to give up on this.

this is not succeeding and we need to not judge the efforts that we made to make it succeed we need to find a totally different path here totally and completely different it was fantastic and so i eye-opening for me so eye-opening earlier you mentioned the do's and the domes when going through change

this is not succeeding and we need to not judge the efforts that we made to make it succeed we need to find a totally different path here totally and completely different it was fantastic and so i eye-opening for me so eye-opening earlier you mentioned the do's and the domes when going through change

yes i think that there are a lot of parallels to bill bridge's model but something that you said there about his third his is you know unfreeze again his third and final stage is that you emerge with a new identity and i think that this is so vital for us as leaders to understand that when we are asking our people to make a significant change

yes i think that there are a lot of parallels to bill bridge's model but something that you said there about his third his is you know unfreeze again his third and final stage is that you emerge with a new identity and i think that this is so vital for us as leaders to understand that when we are asking our people to make a significant change

they often do have a change in their fundamental identity or how they see themselves and it can be hard to recognize because often in the leadership role we already see them in that way if we didn't see that they had the potential collectively and individually

they often do have a change in their fundamental identity or how they see themselves and it can be hard to recognize because often in the leadership role we already see them in that way if we didn't see that they had the potential collectively and individually

to make this change successful, we probably wouldn't have started down that path or we wouldn't have brought in some different people to lead them. So it is so vital to understand that change management is about hitting the target, right? Implementing the change on time, within budget, to a set standard.

to make this change successful, we probably wouldn't have started down that path or we wouldn't have brought in some different people to lead them. So it is so vital to understand that change management is about hitting the target, right? Implementing the change on time, within budget, to a set standard.

But this can actually be much more profound for others than we recognize because they can come out of it with a new identity. Think of, for example, my clients who are financial analysts. Today, even just as recently as three years ago, the technology didn't really exist for them to spend the bulk of their time Truly advising senior business leaders on what they should be doing in the business.

But this can actually be much more profound for others than we recognize because they can come out of it with a new identity. Think of, for example, my clients who are financial analysts. Today, even just as recently as three years ago, the technology didn't really exist for them to spend the bulk of their time Truly advising senior business leaders on what they should be doing in the business.

They had very little time to say things like, hey, here's a market force that I see going on in Japan. And I think we need to focus 40% more of our sales effort there on this product line. No way. They were too busy being Excel jockeys, right? Today, that technology has come a very long way.

They had very little time to say things like, hey, here's a market force that I see going on in Japan. And I think we need to focus 40% more of our sales effort there on this product line. No way. They were too busy being Excel jockeys, right? Today, that technology has come a very long way.

But what happens to someone who for 10 years has been spending most of their time, maybe not real happily, but spending most of their time just getting those numbers accurate? And now suddenly you are telling them that within a matter of months, those leaders are going to be able to press a button and see the data that you used to have put together for them.

But what happens to someone who for 10 years has been spending most of their time, maybe not real happily, but spending most of their time just getting those numbers accurate? And now suddenly you are telling them that within a matter of months, those leaders are going to be able to press a button and see the data that you used to have put together for them.

And they are now going to turn to you and say, what should I do? Or what happens when the leader doesn't turn to them and say, what should I do? Now, suddenly it's a new identity and they're recognizing they have to earn it. They have to earn that credibility as something more than a master Excel jockey.

And they are now going to turn to you and say, what should I do? Or what happens when the leader doesn't turn to them and say, what should I do? Now, suddenly it's a new identity and they're recognizing they have to earn it. They have to earn that credibility as something more than a master Excel jockey.

that is terrifying that's terrifying that's a whole new set of skills they're going to have to learn how to convert that data into a story they're going to have to learn how to influence they're going to have to learn how to read that person and speak in their language it's terrifying it's terrifying and so really recognizing that people are going to come out of this change with a new identity helps you as a leader

that is terrifying that's terrifying that's a whole new set of skills they're going to have to learn how to convert that data into a story they're going to have to learn how to influence they're going to have to learn how to read that person and speak in their language it's terrifying it's terrifying and so really recognizing that people are going to come out of this change with a new identity helps you as a leader

to have that empathy on the path and to be able to really encourage and support them and put in place what they need to get there that you otherwise might not have recognized, whether it's training and develop, mentoring, coaching, whatever it may be that they're going to need.

to have that empathy on the path and to be able to really encourage and support them and put in place what they need to get there that you otherwise might not have recognized, whether it's training and develop, mentoring, coaching, whatever it may be that they're going to need.

I'm really glad you brought up the freeze, unfreeze, freeze model, because that new identity in the last stage is the single most important part of that model.

I'm really glad you brought up the freeze, unfreeze, freeze model, because that new identity in the last stage is the single most important part of that model.

The wind sometimes looks different at the end than we thought it would at the beginning. So I think absolutely it's fair to step back throughout the change and say, this is what we thought the wind would look like. Is this still true? Or have we come across new information and new learnings along the way that allow us to see what the wind looks like differently?

The wind sometimes looks different at the end than we thought it would at the beginning. So I think absolutely it's fair to step back throughout the change and say, this is what we thought the wind would look like. Is this still true? Or have we come across new information and new learnings along the way that allow us to see what the wind looks like differently?

So I think that's entirely valid because it might not look like you have a win yet, but maybe you do. Maybe it looks different than you think. Maybe what you have here is a small win along the way that you need to celebrate for the progress, even if they've not quite yet gotten to where you see that they could be in the long run.

So I think that's entirely valid because it might not look like you have a win yet, but maybe you do. Maybe it looks different than you think. Maybe what you have here is a small win along the way that you need to celebrate for the progress, even if they've not quite yet gotten to where you see that they could be in the long run.

Because certainly when we look at those key elements, as a leader, you're not doing change alone. Even if it's a personal change, I bet you have friends or family members that come along. And one of those foundations that you really need to attend to is celebrating the dickens out of wins that are so small that you wouldn't normally think to celebrate them.

Because certainly when we look at those key elements, as a leader, you're not doing change alone. Even if it's a personal change, I bet you have friends or family members that come along. And one of those foundations that you really need to attend to is celebrating the dickens out of wins that are so small that you wouldn't normally think to celebrate them.

Because this requires that you focus a lot more of your attention on what's working in the win, and sorry, in the change, versus focusing your attention on what's not working. And guess what? Those saboteurs are hardwired to focus on what's not working.

Because this requires that you focus a lot more of your attention on what's working in the win, and sorry, in the change, versus focusing your attention on what's not working. And guess what? Those saboteurs are hardwired to focus on what's not working.

But there is ample evidence that a great deal of attention on what's working and doing more of that is correlated with getting to that organizational outcome. In the classic sense, we're going to define those outcomes as, for example, a positive change in the stock price. But that's a really hard one for, say, an individual employee to connect to their progress through the change, isn't it?

But there is ample evidence that a great deal of attention on what's working and doing more of that is correlated with getting to that organizational outcome. In the classic sense, we're going to define those outcomes as, for example, a positive change in the stock price. But that's a really hard one for, say, an individual employee to connect to their progress through the change, isn't it?

That's so big, right? One person out of hundreds or thousands saying the stock price moved after we were able to implement this large scale system, but it's hard to see the individual connection. So I think that also speaks to something that is so extraordinarily important, which is connecting your vision to their big whys, not yours, not the company's.

That's so big, right? One person out of hundreds or thousands saying the stock price moved after we were able to implement this large scale system, but it's hard to see the individual connection. So I think that also speaks to something that is so extraordinarily important, which is connecting your vision to their big whys, not yours, not the company's.

right they're being wise what it goes back to that personal vision what does that success mean to you individually not just the company right but for you as an individual what's the alignment there people will move mountains for you if they really understand how this large-scale change is connected to something more than a bump up in the stock price

right they're being wise what it goes back to that personal vision what does that success mean to you individually not just the company right but for you as an individual what's the alignment there people will move mountains for you if they really understand how this large-scale change is connected to something more than a bump up in the stock price

or a decrease in operational overhead, but to them, their personal big whys.

or a decrease in operational overhead, but to them, their personal big whys.

It's such a great question. And as you were talking about this experience of you leave, you're starting a business, you see your colleagues get promoted. They're still sitting in their six figure incomes. Oh, believe me, that one resonates with me personally. And it's not a straight line.

It's such a great question. And as you were talking about this experience of you leave, you're starting a business, you see your colleagues get promoted. They're still sitting in their six figure incomes. Oh, believe me, that one resonates with me personally. And it's not a straight line.

I'm so glad you asked about this because I've had this conversation with so many people over the years and I was having this conversation with someone whose boss was a micromanager and it was driving him nuts. And I sat down and said, this would be a great blog post. And this was when people were blogging on LinkedIn, that LinkedIn post. garnered 45,000 views and counting.

I'm so glad you asked about this because I've had this conversation with so many people over the years and I was having this conversation with someone whose boss was a micromanager and it was driving him nuts. And I sat down and said, this would be a great blog post. And this was when people were blogging on LinkedIn, that LinkedIn post. garnered 45,000 views and counting.

It was shared out on the main thread through that weekend. I have never, I'm a coach. I'm not a famous person. I have never had so many views on a LinkedIn post or a blog in my life. And I recognize this is a really big deal. Everyone faces this, right? Everyone faces this.

It was shared out on the main thread through that weekend. I have never, I'm a coach. I'm not a famous person. I have never had so many views on a LinkedIn post or a blog in my life. And I recognize this is a really big deal. Everyone faces this, right? Everyone faces this.

at some time and you know what happens when we exit a situation because our boss is ineffective we're running from something versus running to something but of course making a change because you're running away from something usually doesn't pan out as well as when you're running towards something.

at some time and you know what happens when we exit a situation because our boss is ineffective we're running from something versus running to something but of course making a change because you're running away from something usually doesn't pan out as well as when you're running towards something.

So I think there are three mistakes that I really see that these talented professionals making when they find themselves working for an ineffective boss. The first one is playing psychologists. Oh, passive aggressive. bad childhood, won't make a decision, commitment phobic, right? These may or may not be real issues that your boss is facing. Who knows?

So I think there are three mistakes that I really see that these talented professionals making when they find themselves working for an ineffective boss. The first one is playing psychologists. Oh, passive aggressive. bad childhood, won't make a decision, commitment phobic, right? These may or may not be real issues that your boss is facing. Who knows?

But when you, again, this is the judge in action. When you're playing psychologist with the ineffective boss, you're inadvertently disempowering yourself because you're hypothesizing about a psychological issue that even if it turns out you're right, you can't personally treat it. You're not the psychologist, right?

But when you, again, this is the judge in action. When you're playing psychologist with the ineffective boss, you're inadvertently disempowering yourself because you're hypothesizing about a psychological issue that even if it turns out you're right, you can't personally treat it. You're not the psychologist, right?

So if you find yourself starting to go down that path of that judging, that negative emotion, just let it go. Second one, losing perspective by getting attached to one and only one solution, right? And I've seen this many times in which the individual is saying, I have to persevere.

So if you find yourself starting to go down that path of that judging, that negative emotion, just let it go. Second one, losing perspective by getting attached to one and only one solution, right? And I've seen this many times in which the individual is saying, I have to persevere.

I have to turn this product line around no matter how much my funding gets cut or how often my boss and her boss change direction or I must get a big win so that boss can see how wrong he is or whatever. a common one. I'm going to HR and I'm not giving up until they fight for what's right.

I have to turn this product line around no matter how much my funding gets cut or how often my boss and her boss change direction or I must get a big win so that boss can see how wrong he is or whatever. a common one. I'm going to HR and I'm not giving up until they fight for what's right.

When I started this business, which is actually my second business, a few years after it started, we hit the dot-com bust. And the business sank, right? And really struggled. And then again, we got hit in 2008 when the economy collapsed in the United States. And it is so easy to fall into the self-sabotage. The reason, though, is really interesting.

When I started this business, which is actually my second business, a few years after it started, we hit the dot-com bust. And the business sank, right? And really struggled. And then again, we got hit in 2008 when the economy collapsed in the United States. And it is so easy to fall into the self-sabotage. The reason, though, is really interesting.

Now, there's just rarely one clear-cut superior solution to the myriad problems that are caused by an ineffective boss, but there are probably better solutions and there are certainly more options. Shirzad Shamim calls it Turning on your explore neural network where you open up to exploring more solutions to the problem before you jump ship, right?

Now, there's just rarely one clear-cut superior solution to the myriad problems that are caused by an ineffective boss, but there are probably better solutions and there are certainly more options. Shirzad Shamim calls it Turning on your explore neural network where you open up to exploring more solutions to the problem before you jump ship, right?

A third one is creating an emotional sinkhole by making it personal or taking sides in political battles. We get this little dynamic, right? Your ineffective boss leads to lower performance on the team, which leads to stress, which leads to making it personal and taking sides in what we might call a backside covering political battle.

A third one is creating an emotional sinkhole by making it personal or taking sides in political battles. We get this little dynamic, right? Your ineffective boss leads to lower performance on the team, which leads to stress, which leads to making it personal and taking sides in what we might call a backside covering political battle.

So when you find yourself thinking about your boss in these kind of sweeping terms, and again, you feel your judge coming on...

So when you find yourself thinking about your boss in these kind of sweeping terms, and again, you feel your judge coming on...

you're recognized that you're only feeding the intensely negative energy that's there and it does nothing to help you and does nothing to help your teammates the people around you so instead there are really five things that i think you can try to view the situation from a different perspective

you're recognized that you're only feeding the intensely negative energy that's there and it does nothing to help you and does nothing to help your teammates the people around you so instead there are really five things that i think you can try to view the situation from a different perspective

and then handle it in a way that's going to work well for you, whether that's staying in it or making that leap toward another job or toward starting your own business. The first one, step back from that situation and first size up the degree to which his or her incompetence is truly affecting you.

and then handle it in a way that's going to work well for you, whether that's staying in it or making that leap toward another job or toward starting your own business. The first one, step back from that situation and first size up the degree to which his or her incompetence is truly affecting you.

It's disappointing when your boss routinely lets you down, but maybe slowing down your professional growth for a few months because they're new to the role and they're not good at it yet. That's one thing. But that's not in the same league as your entire bonus being on the line or even worse, your personal reputation being put in jeopardy with people you respect because the boss is ineffective.

It's disappointing when your boss routinely lets you down, but maybe slowing down your professional growth for a few months because they're new to the role and they're not good at it yet. That's one thing. But that's not in the same league as your entire bonus being on the line or even worse, your personal reputation being put in jeopardy with people you respect because the boss is ineffective.

So size it up. It's a reflective exercise. It's subjective. It looks different for you from someone else.

So size it up. It's a reflective exercise. It's subjective. It looks different for you from someone else.

and even for you in different situations at different times in your life but it helps you calibrate that situation a little bit quiet down those nasty saboteurs so that you're calibrating it to your unique needs right is it short term and you just want to let it stop bothering you before you make a big change

and even for you in different situations at different times in your life but it helps you calibrate that situation a little bit quiet down those nasty saboteurs so that you're calibrating it to your unique needs right is it short term and you just want to let it stop bothering you before you make a big change

or is this something that's really added up and you need to go and you just need to do that secondly assess if you're in a politically messy situation oh i hate this tip but if you do think you're in a politically messy situation you do have to begin some basic defensive action right employees have lost their jobs due to ineffective managers who failed to protect them

or is this something that's really added up and you need to go and you just need to do that secondly assess if you're in a politically messy situation oh i hate this tip but if you do think you're in a politically messy situation you do have to begin some basic defensive action right employees have lost their jobs due to ineffective managers who failed to protect them

right so if you sense that level of risk and you feel it's important to keep your job oh it pains me but you got to start documenting conversations agreements you got to document open items and follow up emails after conversations Try to have more group conversations.

right so if you sense that level of risk and you feel it's important to keep your job oh it pains me but you got to start documenting conversations agreements you got to document open items and follow up emails after conversations Try to have more group conversations.

Oh, God, I just want to gag when I say this, but look, if you objectively size it up as politically messy, start doing those basic defensive actions. And no matter what, you must maintain your composure in a politically messy situation, no matter how absurd it becomes. The most absurd one to date is one that happened to a client about 24 years ago.

Oh, God, I just want to gag when I say this, but look, if you objectively size it up as politically messy, start doing those basic defensive actions. And no matter what, you must maintain your composure in a politically messy situation, no matter how absurd it becomes. The most absurd one to date is one that happened to a client about 24 years ago.

He found himself receiving the wrong performance review from his general manager, who mixed him up with another direct report and launched into the review she'd prepared for the other man. Now, I will admit, these two gentlemen were both Scandinavian. They looked a lot alike, but come on, they weren't twins.

He found himself receiving the wrong performance review from his general manager, who mixed him up with another direct report and launched into the review she'd prepared for the other man. Now, I will admit, these two gentlemen were both Scandinavian. They looked a lot alike, but come on, they weren't twins.

So he just maintained his composure, told her that the objectives she was covering were for the other man's projects. He also made sure he paid more attention to having accurate data about his performance in writing, which did prove to be helpful later. And please don't become ultra paranoid. Please don't stop trying to build a positive working relationship, even in this situation.

So he just maintained his composure, told her that the objectives she was covering were for the other man's projects. He also made sure he paid more attention to having accurate data about his performance in writing, which did prove to be helpful later. And please don't become ultra paranoid. Please don't stop trying to build a positive working relationship, even in this situation.

It is still good to try to build a positive working relationship. A couple more, consider multiple ways to deal with the situation, right? Is the ineffectiveness entrenched? Or is the boss just having a bumpy transition? Look at options like going out of your way to ensure that the team achieves its goals while the boss gets up to speed on new responsibilities.

It is still good to try to build a positive working relationship. A couple more, consider multiple ways to deal with the situation, right? Is the ineffectiveness entrenched? Or is the boss just having a bumpy transition? Look at options like going out of your way to ensure that the team achieves its goals while the boss gets up to speed on new responsibilities.

Or if there's something that you recognize the boss is always going to be ineffective at this part. offer to help out in an area that your boss doesn't enjoy and doesn't do well. I had one client who's great at team building, initiated team building outing. This boss just isn't good at that.

Or if there's something that you recognize the boss is always going to be ineffective at this part. offer to help out in an area that your boss doesn't enjoy and doesn't do well. I had one client who's great at team building, initiated team building outing. This boss just isn't good at that.

I had another one who is great, has an eagle eye on a project plan, just offer to validate that project plan because she could see she's always going to be better at it than the boss. And then

I had another one who is great, has an eagle eye on a project plan, just offer to validate that project plan because she could see she's always going to be better at it than the boss. And then

honestly this one's a little touchy but honestly ask yourself is it that the boss is completely ineffective or are you resisting adapting to a change that the boss is implementing so gosh it's painful to admit right that it might be that the strategy is sound but you hate it or you just don't buy into the direction

honestly this one's a little touchy but honestly ask yourself is it that the boss is completely ineffective or are you resisting adapting to a change that the boss is implementing so gosh it's painful to admit right that it might be that the strategy is sound but you hate it or you just don't buy into the direction

And if that's the case, at least you're recognizing you're resisting adapting to this change. You don't want to go along with it. And so in that situation, you have a choice. You can either say, you know what, I'm going to voice my concerns and I'm going to commit to making it successful for as long as I'm here because that's my job. That's what I'm here to do, right?

And if that's the case, at least you're recognizing you're resisting adapting to this change. You don't want to go along with it. And so in that situation, you have a choice. You can either say, you know what, I'm going to voice my concerns and I'm going to commit to making it successful for as long as I'm here because that's my job. That's what I'm here to do, right?

Or you're going to decide from a healthier, more grounded place, this change just isn't for you and you are going to leave. And maybe that's when you are going to go to build that business, but you're going to do it in a way that is very positive and constructive for those people around you and for yourself.

Or you're going to decide from a healthier, more grounded place, this change just isn't for you and you are going to leave. And maybe that's when you are going to go to build that business, but you're going to do it in a way that is very positive and constructive for those people around you and for yourself.

the AD, C-H-A-M-I-N-E, Shirzad Shamim. And he writes a great deal about the neuroscience of this because that self-sabotage is something that develops in very early childhood. It is almost entirely wired into our brains by the time we're five years old. Now, why is that in there?

the AD, C-H-A-M-I-N-E, Shirzad Shamim. And he writes a great deal about the neuroscience of this because that self-sabotage is something that develops in very early childhood. It is almost entirely wired into our brains by the time we're five years old. Now, why is that in there?

Because you'll have made a more intentional, informed choice rather than a choice that's driven by unexamined and unconscious feelings. That's when you wind up just working for a different flavor of a bad boss. Does that help?

Because you'll have made a more intentional, informed choice rather than a choice that's driven by unexamined and unconscious feelings. That's when you wind up just working for a different flavor of a bad boss. Does that help?

Absolutely. Politics can exist for a couple of different reasons. And I think it's important to recognize which of those situations you're in. So politics can exist for extremely unhealthy reasons in all seriousness, because you have a leader at the top, who quite literally has a personality disorder.

Absolutely. Politics can exist for a couple of different reasons. And I think it's important to recognize which of those situations you're in. So politics can exist for extremely unhealthy reasons in all seriousness, because you have a leader at the top, who quite literally has a personality disorder.

Now, people who suffer from that problem often aren't aware that they're suffering from it, but also do not respond to coaching. And the politics that they drive are from a whole different place. And it is going to be extremely difficult in that environment to manage your way through the politics and to drive change. And that is one whole animal that is

Now, people who suffer from that problem often aren't aware that they're suffering from it, but also do not respond to coaching. And the politics that they drive are from a whole different place. And it is going to be extremely difficult in that environment to manage your way through the politics and to drive change. And that is one whole animal that is

It is just beyond the scope, I think, of what we could cover in this particular episode of the podcast. But the other driver, which I find much, much more common, is that politics exists because people have different needs and because people have different skill levels. And so someone who is particularly good at recognizing the needs of the people who wield the most power

It is just beyond the scope, I think, of what we could cover in this particular episode of the podcast. But the other driver, which I find much, much more common, is that politics exists because people have different needs and because people have different skill levels. And so someone who is particularly good at recognizing the needs of the people who wield the most power

is going to be better at figuring out how to get those people on board with the change, right? And so it becomes, so again, it's so funny that politics triggers our saboteurs make us want to defend ourselves, right? They are all about survival. But in fact, we circle right back to empathy because being able to understand

is going to be better at figuring out how to get those people on board with the change, right? And so it becomes, so again, it's so funny that politics triggers our saboteurs make us want to defend ourselves, right? They are all about survival. But in fact, we circle right back to empathy because being able to understand

and empathize the competing needs of the many stakeholders involved in a change is the path forward. It is the path forward. You cannot move through the creative process that you need to have to construct that change in such a way that it meets multiple needs. You will not, without empathy, be able to bring together leaders who need to come together and who don't especially want to.

and empathize the competing needs of the many stakeholders involved in a change is the path forward. It is the path forward. You cannot move through the creative process that you need to have to construct that change in such a way that it meets multiple needs. You will not, without empathy, be able to bring together leaders who need to come together and who don't especially want to.

So, that, again, is the foundation. Above and beyond that, multiple steps, and maybe that's the subject for another podcast, but you will want to defend yourself against politics, but...

So, that, again, is the foundation. Above and beyond that, multiple steps, and maybe that's the subject for another podcast, but you will want to defend yourself against politics, but...

Opening yourself up to really putting yourself in the shoes of all of these people who seem to have power that perhaps you think they don't deserve is the foundation to understanding what's going on and to being able to navigate or, as I like to think of it, surf your way through those political waves and those choppy waters.

Opening yourself up to really putting yourself in the shoes of all of these people who seem to have power that perhaps you think they don't deserve is the foundation to understanding what's going on and to being able to navigate or, as I like to think of it, surf your way through those political waves and those choppy waters.

those saboteurs as he calls them are neural networks that very tiny children develop to ensure their survival if a little tiny kid recognized that their parents were not infallible which is actually true It would be terrifying because they cannot care for themselves, right? So these neural networks form as a vital part of early childhood. They're just part of that survival mechanism.

those saboteurs as he calls them are neural networks that very tiny children develop to ensure their survival if a little tiny kid recognized that their parents were not infallible which is actually true It would be terrifying because they cannot care for themselves, right? So these neural networks form as a vital part of early childhood. They're just part of that survival mechanism.

However, in adulthood, we don't need those anymore. But at that point, they're really strong. They've been there for decades, right? Getting stronger and stronger, and they're just lurking in there.

However, in adulthood, we don't need those anymore. But at that point, they're really strong. They've been there for decades, right? Getting stronger and stronger, and they're just lurking in there.

and i want to really convey the important message that when you start to feel yourself self-sabotage that's not you that's the saboteur neural networks in your mind firing up that's all that is and they're sitting in there and they jump out when they get a signal that indicates that there's a threat to survival.

and i want to really convey the important message that when you start to feel yourself self-sabotage that's not you that's the saboteur neural networks in your mind firing up that's all that is and they're sitting in there and they jump out when they get a signal that indicates that there's a threat to survival.

Of course, if you go after a contract in your new business and you work really hard on it, you put all this time into it. When you were an employee, if that contract didn't close, you still got your paycheck. But now all of a sudden, you're looking at, can I pay my rent? Can I make my mortgage? So that, of course, your brain fires that up as risk to survival. And so the saboteurs jump in there.

Of course, if you go after a contract in your new business and you work really hard on it, you put all this time into it. When you were an employee, if that contract didn't close, you still got your paycheck. But now all of a sudden, you're looking at, can I pay my rent? Can I make my mortgage? So that, of course, your brain fires that up as risk to survival. And so the saboteurs jump in there.

The universal saboteur is called the judge. Every single one of us has this. And the judge has snuck in there and is getting in your way when you feel a negative feeling and you are judging either yourself or

The universal saboteur is called the judge. Every single one of us has this. And the judge has snuck in there and is getting in your way when you feel a negative feeling and you are judging either yourself or

or someone else or the situation that is a sign that your judge is in there your judge is going to tell you you need me i am good for you but you don't need that judge to be talking and the judge is not good for you so the way that you can recognize that again you feel a negative feeling You're feeling stress, frustration, anxiety.

or someone else or the situation that is a sign that your judge is in there your judge is going to tell you you need me i am good for you but you don't need that judge to be talking and the judge is not good for you so the way that you can recognize that again you feel a negative feeling You're feeling stress, frustration, anxiety.

These are all signs that the judge is in there and your thoughts are in the direction of, oh, I'm such a fool. Why did I do this? Or why, what's wrong with them that they didn't sign my contract, right? Or if only we had such and such process in place, we wouldn't have this problem, would we? Those are all signs that the judge neural network has fired up. and you just need to weaken that judge.

These are all signs that the judge is in there and your thoughts are in the direction of, oh, I'm such a fool. Why did I do this? Or why, what's wrong with them that they didn't sign my contract, right? Or if only we had such and such process in place, we wouldn't have this problem, would we? Those are all signs that the judge neural network has fired up. and you just need to weaken that judge.

Yes, absolutely. And people have asked me, why is it so hard to make this judge go away? And I say, we don't necessarily want to make the judge entirely go away. That's almost impossible. It's a neural network that's in there. But boy, can we weaken that judge. And the reason I say we don't necessarily want the judge to completely go away because that negative feeling, it's like a warning sign.

Yes, absolutely. And people have asked me, why is it so hard to make this judge go away? And I say, we don't necessarily want to make the judge entirely go away. That's almost impossible. It's a neural network that's in there. But boy, can we weaken that judge. And the reason I say we don't necessarily want the judge to completely go away because that negative feeling, it's like a warning sign.

It's just a little warning sign that there's something you need to attend to. But it's like a hand on a hot stove. You want to feel it. You want to feel the pain. You want to feel that negative emotion of the pain so that you recognize there's something you need to attend to. But as soon as you feel it,

It's just a little warning sign that there's something you need to attend to. But it's like a hand on a hot stove. You want to feel it. You want to feel the pain. You want to feel that negative emotion of the pain so that you recognize there's something you need to attend to. But as soon as you feel it,

It's important to just call out, oh, that's my judge versus I can't believe I made that mistake. Oh, stupid. What am I going to learn? It is, by the way, it is no better to be a judge of yourself and not of others than to be a judge of others and not yourself. It's all the judge. It's all negative, right? It all is contagious. The judge energy is contagious to others.

It's important to just call out, oh, that's my judge versus I can't believe I made that mistake. Oh, stupid. What am I going to learn? It is, by the way, it is no better to be a judge of yourself and not of others than to be a judge of others and not yourself. It's all the judge. It's all negative, right? It all is contagious. The judge energy is contagious to others.

no matter which direction it's headed. And so it's so vital to call out and recognize, oh, that's my judge versus it's me. There's something wrong with me. That's my judge. And then you can weaken that judge in so many different ways. One is to gently make a little fun, like you would with a little kid. Oh, I see you. I caught you, right? I found you, hide and seek.

no matter which direction it's headed. And so it's so vital to call out and recognize, oh, that's my judge versus it's me. There's something wrong with me. That's my judge. And then you can weaken that judge in so many different ways. One is to gently make a little fun, like you would with a little kid. Oh, I see you. I caught you, right? I found you, hide and seek.

You can be dismissive of your judge and go, oh, judge, you're so late to the party. I can't believe you didn't bring me down earlier. You can do all kinds of things, but the most important thing is call out that judge. You can just respectfully say, hey, judge, thanks. I don't really need that help. I got this, right? So literally it is having these conversations with yourself.

You can be dismissive of your judge and go, oh, judge, you're so late to the party. I can't believe you didn't bring me down earlier. You can do all kinds of things, but the most important thing is call out that judge. You can just respectfully say, hey, judge, thanks. I don't really need that help. I got this, right? So literally it is having these conversations with yourself.

Because one of the things that the judge does is the judge also calls up what's called an accomplice saboteur. It's another saboteur or two or sometimes three that have taken root in the fertile soil of your brain and wrapped themselves around whatever your gifts are. I had a client who went into his first CISO role ever. A number of my clients are in their first C-suite role ever.

Because one of the things that the judge does is the judge also calls up what's called an accomplice saboteur. It's another saboteur or two or sometimes three that have taken root in the fertile soil of your brain and wrapped themselves around whatever your gifts are. I had a client who went into his first CISO role ever. A number of my clients are in their first C-suite role ever.

That in and of itself is a huge personal change to manage. And then they're having the surprise of what they learn as they're in that role. And in this case, this client had gone from a highly regulated industry to a fairly regulated industry, which is a whole different ball of wax. And then Vince, as if that weren't enough,

That in and of itself is a huge personal change to manage. And then they're having the surprise of what they learn as they're in that role. And in this case, this client had gone from a highly regulated industry to a fairly regulated industry, which is a whole different ball of wax. And then Vince, as if that weren't enough,

He discovered that his organization, which he inherited, which had a 44, 0% attrition rate and had many people who were actually too junior for the roles that they had. There was also, they were swept up in a company wide quote unquote optimization effort, which is to say cost cutting headcount reduction. He actually needed to replace people.

He discovered that his organization, which he inherited, which had a 44, 0% attrition rate and had many people who were actually too junior for the roles that they had. There was also, they were swept up in a company wide quote unquote optimization effort, which is to say cost cutting headcount reduction. He actually needed to replace people.

He needed to spend more because he needed to hire more senior people to manage them. And there was this huge pressure on him, which was particularly being driven by a guy who was a peer of his, who had his boss's ear and who drove him nuts, which is to say he tried. triggered my client's saboteurs.

He needed to spend more because he needed to hire more senior people to manage them. And there was this huge pressure on him, which was particularly being driven by a guy who was a peer of his, who had his boss's ear and who drove him nuts, which is to say he tried. triggered my client's saboteurs.

So we spent the first three months of our coaching completely focused on recognizing the saboteurs and weakening them. Because one of the things his accomplice saboteur, a hyperachiever, was telling him was pretty much, I have to win. And the only way I can win at this change is if this guy loses because this guy is my enemy. What was that going to do?

So we spent the first three months of our coaching completely focused on recognizing the saboteurs and weakening them. Because one of the things his accomplice saboteur, a hyperachiever, was telling him was pretty much, I have to win. And the only way I can win at this change is if this guy loses because this guy is my enemy. What was that going to do?

I can guarantee you my client is sharp and this guy was right and he was going to win. But what was the cost going to be in that organization? Right. What was that cost going to be? So with him, we worked on calling out when his judge was judging this guy. If only that guy weren't here. I could do everything I need to do, right? We focused on calling out his judge when it was judging him.

I can guarantee you my client is sharp and this guy was right and he was going to win. But what was the cost going to be in that organization? Right. What was that cost going to be? So with him, we worked on calling out when his judge was judging this guy. If only that guy weren't here. I could do everything I need to do, right? We focused on calling out his judge when it was judging him.

Geez, if only I were a better CISO, we wouldn't have this problem, right? We called out his accomplice saboteur who was saying, in order for me to win, that dude's got to lose. And so instead of that, we did something which is the, it is the kryptonite to the judge, right? which is empathy. We called up empathy for this poor colleague of his.

Geez, if only I were a better CISO, we wouldn't have this problem, right? We called out his accomplice saboteur who was saying, in order for me to win, that dude's got to lose. And so instead of that, we did something which is the, it is the kryptonite to the judge, right? which is empathy. We called up empathy for this poor colleague of his.

who was having a highly unpopular initiative and frankly wasn't doing it in a very effective way and was triggering people all around him. And my client really, truly put himself in that person's shoes. In one meeting, I even had him speak as that individual to me so that he was completely in that guy's shoes and he was able to make his case

who was having a highly unpopular initiative and frankly wasn't doing it in a very effective way and was triggering people all around him. And my client really, truly put himself in that person's shoes. In one meeting, I even had him speak as that individual to me so that he was completely in that guy's shoes and he was able to make his case

and build his argument in a way that was compassionate, right? That was not competitive. That wasn't even about this other guy. The end result was that my client was much happier day in and day out. He was much more successful.

and build his argument in a way that was compassionate, right? That was not competitive. That wasn't even about this other guy. The end result was that my client was much happier day in and day out. He was much more successful.

Not only was he able to fend off this drive to cut costs, he was able to get the several million dollars additional funding that he needed to do that, the higher level headcount that he needed to add. He was able to slow his attrition

Not only was he able to fend off this drive to cut costs, he was able to get the several million dollars additional funding that he needed to do that, the higher level headcount that he needed to add. He was able to slow his attrition

a great deal and get that under control and this is not something that would have come for him so quickly with such success he becomes the guy who has the boss's ear where he becomes the guy whose organization is turning around and performing how did he not really face that judge and that talk with saboteur and weaken them by calling them out

a great deal and get that under control and this is not something that would have come for him so quickly with such success he becomes the guy who has the boss's ear where he becomes the guy whose organization is turning around and performing how did he not really face that judge and that talk with saboteur and weaken them by calling them out

And then in this case, calling forth his empathy for someone who was, in his mind, incompetent. And to really deeply have empathy so that he's not trying to compete against this guy, but to just get the right thing done.

And then in this case, calling forth his empathy for someone who was, in his mind, incompetent. And to really deeply have empathy so that he's not trying to compete against this guy, but to just get the right thing done.

Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. And we've had a couple of those. One that comes to mind had such a surprising conclusion in that what I came to recognize was that this leader fundamentally did not want to change and grow. And as a result, we would make a few steps forward and then a few steps back. Interestingly, that particular leader was very strong in some other areas.

Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. And we've had a couple of those. One that comes to mind had such a surprising conclusion in that what I came to recognize was that this leader fundamentally did not want to change and grow. And as a result, we would make a few steps forward and then a few steps back. Interestingly, that particular leader was very strong in some other areas.

At the end of our last conversation, we talked about something that really resonates with everybody. How some people, when making career moves... leave a toxic boss or a harmful culture or an environment that is so vested in office politics only to find themselves in a similar situation at the new job. It's like running away from one problem only to land in another.

At the end of our last conversation, we talked about something that really resonates with everybody. How some people, when making career moves... leave a toxic boss or a harmful culture or an environment that is so vested in office politics only to find themselves in a similar situation at the new job. It's like running away from one problem only to land in another.

At the end of the day, it's about knowing yourselves and being intentional in choosing the workplace culture that fits your character and values. If you thrive in office politics and it energizes you, a politically charged environment might suit you. But if that's not who you are, staying in such an environment could lead to frustration, burnout, disengagement, and lower productivity.

At the end of the day, it's about knowing yourselves and being intentional in choosing the workplace culture that fits your character and values. If you thrive in office politics and it energizes you, a politically charged environment might suit you. But if that's not who you are, staying in such an environment could lead to frustration, burnout, disengagement, and lower productivity.

For those feeling stopped, Reflect on whether you can adapt without compromising your values. Ask yourself, does this place, does this environment truly support who I am and how I work best? If the answer is no, it might be time to move on to a place that aligns better with your strengths. It allows you to grow. Change isn't just about leaving. It's about finding the right fit to thrive.

For those feeling stopped, Reflect on whether you can adapt without compromising your values. Ask yourself, does this place, does this environment truly support who I am and how I work best? If the answer is no, it might be time to move on to a place that aligns better with your strengths. It allows you to grow. Change isn't just about leaving. It's about finding the right fit to thrive.

that led us into a bordered discussion on toxic cultures and even the role office politics play in these dynamics. We also touched on how some leaders or managers might unknowingly struggle with their personality disorders, which can contribute to these environments. Today, we are honing in on office politics specifically. Let's be real, who hasn't faced them?

that led us into a bordered discussion on toxic cultures and even the role office politics play in these dynamics. We also touched on how some leaders or managers might unknowingly struggle with their personality disorders, which can contribute to these environments. Today, we are honing in on office politics specifically. Let's be real, who hasn't faced them?

Thank you so much for joining us today. If you like what you heard, don't forget subscribe to our show, leave us top-rated reviews, check out our website, and follow me on social media. I'm Vince Chen, your ambitious human host. Until next time, take care.

Thank you so much for joining us today. If you like what you heard, don't forget subscribe to our show, leave us top-rated reviews, check out our website, and follow me on social media. I'm Vince Chen, your ambitious human host. Until next time, take care.

Whether it's subtle power struggles or outright maneuvering is something everyone has encountered. Yet, when I type office politics into Google, I don't find as much as I expected. Maybe the term isn't as trendy, but that doesn't mean the problem isn't real or common. People might call it power dynamics, workplace dynamics, but the underlying issue is universal.

Whether it's subtle power struggles or outright maneuvering is something everyone has encountered. Yet, when I type office politics into Google, I don't find as much as I expected. Maybe the term isn't as trendy, but that doesn't mean the problem isn't real or common. People might call it power dynamics, workplace dynamics, but the underlying issue is universal.

Do you think having a hybrid work model might actually help manage office politics? Or does it make things worse? On one hand, with less in-person interaction, people aren't constantly grouped together, which might reduce some of the tension that can build in close quarters. it creates a bit of balance. You're not always in the office, so those dynamics don't dominate your entire day.

Do you think having a hybrid work model might actually help manage office politics? Or does it make things worse? On one hand, with less in-person interaction, people aren't constantly grouped together, which might reduce some of the tension that can build in close quarters. it creates a bit of balance. You're not always in the office, so those dynamics don't dominate your entire day.

But on the other hand, there's the behind-the-scenes factor. Those who want to curry favor with the boss could still do it privately in ways others might not even notice. is a different kind of politicking that could still cause issues, just less visibly. I imagine researchers are already looking into this shift and its impact on workplace dynamics.

But on the other hand, there's the behind-the-scenes factor. Those who want to curry favor with the boss could still do it privately in ways others might not even notice. is a different kind of politicking that could still cause issues, just less visibly. I imagine researchers are already looking into this shift and its impact on workplace dynamics.

What's your take on how hybrid or remote work influences office politics? Does it shift the balance? Or do you think human nature finds a way to keep the same patterns alive just in new formats?

What's your take on how hybrid or remote work influences office politics? Does it shift the balance? Or do you think human nature finds a way to keep the same patterns alive just in new formats?

Today's guest is an old friend of our show, Jennifer Selby Long. Jennifer was with us in Season 3, Episode 7 and 8. In the last 30 years, Jennifer has been helping tech leaders navigate the waves of tech evolution, leading and managing organizational change. But leaders can't successfully drive organizational change without being a master of their own personal transformation.

Today's guest is an old friend of our show, Jennifer Selby Long. Jennifer was with us in Season 3, Episode 7 and 8. In the last 30 years, Jennifer has been helping tech leaders navigate the waves of tech evolution, leading and managing organizational change. But leaders can't successfully drive organizational change without being a master of their own personal transformation.

When I worked in corporate, I collaborated with people across different locations. Hong Kong, London, Singapore, New York, Australia, all over the place. Remote collaboration was the norm for me, even without smartphones at the time. While the systems were smooth, politics was always present, whether locally or at the headquarters.

When I worked in corporate, I collaborated with people across different locations. Hong Kong, London, Singapore, New York, Australia, all over the place. Remote collaboration was the norm for me, even without smartphones at the time. While the systems were smooth, politics was always present, whether locally or at the headquarters.

Decisions made at headquarters, often driven by power dynamics, would ripple out and affect us in Asia-Pacific regional office. You brought up the idea of some people being immune to politically charged environments. But I've also observed an other type of those who thrive in them. And here's where it gets frustrating.

Decisions made at headquarters, often driven by power dynamics, would ripple out and affect us in Asia-Pacific regional office. You brought up the idea of some people being immune to politically charged environments. But I've also observed an other type of those who thrive in them. And here's where it gets frustrating.

In many organizations, it's not the most skilled or high-performing employees who stay. Often, it's those who navigate all this politics best. I've seen this firsthand. Imagine you have three people, A, B, and C. A and B are top performers, far better at their jobs than C. But somehow it's C who sticks around while A and B either leave for better opportunities or are squeezed out.

In many organizations, it's not the most skilled or high-performing employees who stay. Often, it's those who navigate all this politics best. I've seen this firsthand. Imagine you have three people, A, B, and C. A and B are top performers, far better at their jobs than C. But somehow it's C who sticks around while A and B either leave for better opportunities or are squeezed out.

Sometimes bosses prefer it that way because they don't want to feel threatened. Leaders may say they want to hire people smarter than them to push the organization forward. But in reality, jealousy, ego, and sense of insecurity often get in the way. A boss might think, why should I keep someone who doesn't follow my orders, even if they are brilliant?

Sometimes bosses prefer it that way because they don't want to feel threatened. Leaders may say they want to hire people smarter than them to push the organization forward. But in reality, jealousy, ego, and sense of insecurity often get in the way. A boss might think, why should I keep someone who doesn't follow my orders, even if they are brilliant?

Even when colleagues or clients sing the praises of these high performers, it can backfire. A boss who feels overshadowed might quietly engineer a way to push them out. The result? Talented, hardworking people leave feeling disillusioned and disengaged, while less capable colleagues remain. It's no wonder we hear terms like burnout or disengagement tossed around.

Even when colleagues or clients sing the praises of these high performers, it can backfire. A boss who feels overshadowed might quietly engineer a way to push them out. The result? Talented, hardworking people leave feeling disillusioned and disengaged, while less capable colleagues remain. It's no wonder we hear terms like burnout or disengagement tossed around.

But at its core, it comes down to a lack of respect and recognition for those who truly contribute. This cycle is what I have observed and even experienced myself. Those who stay aren't always the best performers. They are often just the best at playing the game. Jennifer, what's your perspective on this dynamic? How do we address this to create fairer and more effective workplaces?

But at its core, it comes down to a lack of respect and recognition for those who truly contribute. This cycle is what I have observed and even experienced myself. Those who stay aren't always the best performers. They are often just the best at playing the game. Jennifer, what's your perspective on this dynamic? How do we address this to create fairer and more effective workplaces?

So last time, Jennifer and I looked into the natural process of personal change. We also talked about how to manage self-doubt and self-sabotage. Jennifer, welcome back to Chief Change Officer. You are setting a new record for us. For one guest, you are going to have four episodes under your own name. Indeed. Thank you for having me. I so appreciate it, Vin.

So last time, Jennifer and I looked into the natural process of personal change. We also talked about how to manage self-doubt and self-sabotage. Jennifer, welcome back to Chief Change Officer. You are setting a new record for us. For one guest, you are going to have four episodes under your own name. Indeed. Thank you for having me. I so appreciate it, Vin.

Office politics, as its core, isn't inherently good or bad. It is simply a reflection of human nature in group dynamics. When people come together to work towards a goal, there's always an underlying assumption that everyone is aligned. But in reality, goals often clash. When priorities conflict, tensions arise.

Office politics, as its core, isn't inherently good or bad. It is simply a reflection of human nature in group dynamics. When people come together to work towards a goal, there's always an underlying assumption that everyone is aligned. But in reality, goals often clash. When priorities conflict, tensions arise.

people start using alternative methods to advance their own objectives and agenda at the expense of others. Sometimes, this is when things like back-stepping, bad-mouthing, or other manipulative behaviors emerge. It's not the politics itself that's the issue, but how it manifests. Pursuing individual agendas can erode trust and create a toxic environment. It's a cycle.

people start using alternative methods to advance their own objectives and agenda at the expense of others. Sometimes, this is when things like back-stepping, bad-mouthing, or other manipulative behaviors emerge. It's not the politics itself that's the issue, but how it manifests. Pursuing individual agendas can erode trust and create a toxic environment. It's a cycle.

One person's actions trigger another's defense mechanism. And before you know it, the focus shifts from collaboration to competition. Understanding this dynamic is key to addressing it. The question becomes, how do we redirect these energies back towards shared goals and healthier workplace relationships?

One person's actions trigger another's defense mechanism. And before you know it, the focus shifts from collaboration to competition. Understanding this dynamic is key to addressing it. The question becomes, how do we redirect these energies back towards shared goals and healthier workplace relationships?

Could you elaborate on the last point you just made?

Could you elaborate on the last point you just made?

I wonder what kind of a situation they're in. I wonder what they've been instructed in. And continuing to just stay in this curious mode could give you some insights into the interests of these various people in power. And then you need to look at how are your interests aligned with the interests of these people in power. Right.

I wonder what kind of a situation they're in. I wonder what they've been instructed in. And continuing to just stay in this curious mode could give you some insights into the interests of these various people in power. And then you need to look at how are your interests aligned with the interests of these people in power. Right.

And if you do have interests that are aligned with some of these people in power, that's when you need to find yourself an ally among those other people. And get that person to become a co-leader with you in whatever it is that you want to happen, whatever change it is that you want to happen.

And if you do have interests that are aligned with some of these people in power, that's when you need to find yourself an ally among those other people. And get that person to become a co-leader with you in whatever it is that you want to happen, whatever change it is that you want to happen.

That's not just someone who says they agree with you, but someone who would step up, put some skin in the game, co-lead with you, someone who would get as much credit as you get for maybe solving the problem that people were in a power struggle over. And maybe that person will get even more credit I put myself in situations like that.

That's not just someone who says they agree with you, but someone who would step up, put some skin in the game, co-lead with you, someone who would get as much credit as you get for maybe solving the problem that people were in a power struggle over. And maybe that person will get even more credit I put myself in situations like that.

Even though it's not particularly fair, if it does help to break down those power dynamics, having that ally who is really a co-leader is pretty important. Stay focused on the outcome that you want and the interests and needs of the people involved. That's really the last real ongoing thing in that little process.

Even though it's not particularly fair, if it does help to break down those power dynamics, having that ally who is really a co-leader is pretty important. Stay focused on the outcome that you want and the interests and needs of the people involved. That's really the last real ongoing thing in that little process.

approach that I've recommended because the interest and the needs of yourself and the others are what drives really just about everyone's behavior. And staying attuned to those becomes pretty vital to lessening the power struggles, right? And to keeping them at bay over the long time. I think we talked a little bit about how

approach that I've recommended because the interest and the needs of yourself and the others are what drives really just about everyone's behavior. And staying attuned to those becomes pretty vital to lessening the power struggles, right? And to keeping them at bay over the long time. I think we talked a little bit about how

Sometimes very sort of average people seem to excel in these environments that are politically charged. And one of the surprising reasons is there's maybe 25 to 35 percent of the general population that has a natural temperament that's just generally not bothered as much by political issues. clashes. They just aren't.

Sometimes very sort of average people seem to excel in these environments that are politically charged. And one of the surprising reasons is there's maybe 25 to 35 percent of the general population that has a natural temperament that's just generally not bothered as much by political issues. clashes. They just aren't.

They just naturally get very interested in quickly assessing the situation, figuring out how to get to the goal. And I would imagine those people aren't even listening to this podcast. They're not even interested in it. And so there are some people who are just, they're built in a way that they just have a natural buffer against it.

They just naturally get very interested in quickly assessing the situation, figuring out how to get to the goal. And I would imagine those people aren't even listening to this podcast. They're not even interested in it. And so there are some people who are just, they're built in a way that they just have a natural buffer against it.

So sometimes someone might look very, I don't know, cold to you if you're bothered by the power struggles that are underway. because they're not particularly bothered by them. That stuff doesn't really trouble them too much, but they seem to do fine and not be troubled by that.

So sometimes someone might look very, I don't know, cold to you if you're bothered by the power struggles that are underway. because they're not particularly bothered by them. That stuff doesn't really trouble them too much, but they seem to do fine and not be troubled by that.

In fact, I think I mentioned in our last conversation, Vince, about a client who came in, first time C-suite executive, walked into, and not the senior of C-suite, the next level down. So he walked in to this brand new role in a different industry. And he found that he was in the middle of our colossal political battle that he had with Thunderwood.

In fact, I think I mentioned in our last conversation, Vince, about a client who came in, first time C-suite executive, walked into, and not the senior of C-suite, the next level down. So he walked in to this brand new role in a different industry. And he found that he was in the middle of our colossal political battle that he had with Thunderwood.

It only annoyed or troubled him to the extent that it triggered him being a little judgmental. And so all we really worked on was keeping that judge at bay and bringing forward his best self so that he could just step back.

It only annoyed or troubled him to the extent that it triggered him being a little judgmental. And so all we really worked on was keeping that judge at bay and bringing forward his best self so that he could just step back.

empathize with all of the people involved and navigate to a solution that was a win and very much the win that his organization needed in terms of budget in particular for more headcount. His people were grossly overworked and he was able to do that. And to this day, in that same organization, probably four out of five clients there will periodically sigh and complain to me. Oh, wow.

empathize with all of the people involved and navigate to a solution that was a win and very much the win that his organization needed in terms of budget in particular for more headcount. His people were grossly overworked and he was able to do that. And to this day, in that same organization, probably four out of five clients there will periodically sigh and complain to me. Oh, wow.

And it's a densely political environment, but it doesn't faze him at all. He's just naturally built in a way that's not going to work too much. So I think in my tips that I just gave, to some extent, I've dissected the way those people do think and behave.

And it's a densely political environment, but it doesn't faze him at all. He's just naturally built in a way that's not going to work too much. So I think in my tips that I just gave, to some extent, I've dissected the way those people do think and behave.

Yeah, I think it's a great question because it is very much our current situation for many businesses. And I wish the answer were super simple. It's not quite as simple as I wish it were because it does depend a little bit on your situation. In the hybrid work model, are people going into the office to just work on their own work?

Yeah, I think it's a great question because it is very much our current situation for many businesses. And I wish the answer were super simple. It's not quite as simple as I wish it were because it does depend a little bit on your situation. In the hybrid work model, are people going into the office to just work on their own work?

If so, I'm not sure you're going to get huge benefit out of that in terms of lessening politics or political alliances because they're not really interacting that much. Nor do I think you're going to get much of the benefit of obviously working on very complex problems together if you're not really there to work together.

If so, I'm not sure you're going to get huge benefit out of that in terms of lessening politics or political alliances because they're not really interacting that much. Nor do I think you're going to get much of the benefit of obviously working on very complex problems together if you're not really there to work together.

The other particular challenge I'll play you in is most of the clients that we work with are distributed, not throughout one metropolitan area, but across the globe. People who are lonely at work and don't feel connected. It's a big problem. It's a big problem in a lot of places. It causes a lot of additional problems.

The other particular challenge I'll play you in is most of the clients that we work with are distributed, not throughout one metropolitan area, but across the globe. People who are lonely at work and don't feel connected. It's a big problem. It's a big problem in a lot of places. It causes a lot of additional problems.

And from my point of view, it feeds notions of politics because there are people who feel connected and people who don't benefit. So I think that this is one we need to keep observing, assessing and experimenting with. across time. It's a super new way to work when you look at how very many years people work together in person.

And from my point of view, it feeds notions of politics because there are people who feel connected and people who don't benefit. So I think that this is one we need to keep observing, assessing and experimenting with. across time. It's a super new way to work when you look at how very many years people work together in person.

And it's really only been the last few where the majority do not work together in person.

And it's really only been the last few where the majority do not work together in person.

I think it's a very fair and valid question. Why do they exist and what are those factors that contribute to the prevalence of politics in our modern workplaces? In my practice, what I see are two main reasons that office politics exist. The first one is failure to build trust and cohesion, which is, if you will, the subjective or personal reason.

I think it's a very fair and valid question. Why do they exist and what are those factors that contribute to the prevalence of politics in our modern workplaces? In my practice, what I see are two main reasons that office politics exist. The first one is failure to build trust and cohesion, which is, if you will, the subjective or personal reason.

And the second one's failure to align on strategy or strategic direction, which is more the business side. I do think politics are part of a human condition, and they always have been.

And the second one's failure to align on strategy or strategic direction, which is more the business side. I do think politics are part of a human condition, and they always have been.

Now, there is a newer factor that I think contribute today, and that's the global and virtual nature of many businesses combined with what I'm going to boldly call a certain willful blindness on the part of nearly everyone to accept some of the hard realities and trade-offs of that situation or condition.

Now, there is a newer factor that I think contribute today, and that's the global and virtual nature of many businesses combined with what I'm going to boldly call a certain willful blindness on the part of nearly everyone to accept some of the hard realities and trade-offs of that situation or condition.

So fundamentally, what we know is even in today's more virtual environment, people who need to make difficult decisions together in a complex business environment actually need to be together in person far more often than most of us realize.

So fundamentally, what we know is even in today's more virtual environment, people who need to make difficult decisions together in a complex business environment actually need to be together in person far more often than most of us realize.

So the resistance to this comes from both employees who've now gotten used to working at home, they're resisting traveling to get together for off-sites, resisting coming to office locations to work together in person, and from senior leaders who winced at that travel and entertainment budget that's going to be needed to bring people together who aren't in the same city, certainly quite a bit more than once a year.

So the resistance to this comes from both employees who've now gotten used to working at home, they're resisting traveling to get together for off-sites, resisting coming to office locations to work together in person, and from senior leaders who winced at that travel and entertainment budget that's going to be needed to bring people together who aren't in the same city, certainly quite a bit more than once a year.

Now, Vince, would you like a recent example? Yes, please. An example would be nice. A leadership team that I worked with over several years now, and they used to work together really well. In fact, when I first started working with them, we didn't even do any sort of team effectiveness assessment because I assessed informally this team is very effective. That's not what they need my help with.

Now, Vince, would you like a recent example? Yes, please. An example would be nice. A leadership team that I worked with over several years now, and they used to work together really well. In fact, when I first started working with them, we didn't even do any sort of team effectiveness assessment because I assessed informally this team is very effective. That's not what they need my help with.

But as I watched them over the past year, they were beginning to feel threatened by each other. There was backbiting. There was bickering. There were power struggles among this team. And this became very concerning to me. Now, their membership had started to change a little bit. A key team member was leaving to retire.

But as I watched them over the past year, they were beginning to feel threatened by each other. There was backbiting. There was bickering. There were power struggles among this team. And this became very concerning to me. Now, their membership had started to change a little bit. A key team member was leaving to retire.

And their responsibilities at a team and the pressure on them had broadened considerably. They were leading a type of business transformation that had never been attempted before. And so... You've got to start asking what is going on here that this team is becoming, if you will, political. They're getting in these power struggles with each other and these battles.

And their responsibilities at a team and the pressure on them had broadened considerably. They were leading a type of business transformation that had never been attempted before. And so... You've got to start asking what is going on here that this team is becoming, if you will, political. They're getting in these power struggles with each other and these battles.

And this was rolling on down through the organization to where all the people in their organization were starting to complain and say, you seem to be battling with each other all the time. We're not ever sure quite what to do. You don't move as one anymore like you used to. In this situation, I really needed to get this team together in person to work through this.

And this was rolling on down through the organization to where all the people in their organization were starting to complain and say, you seem to be battling with each other all the time. We're not ever sure quite what to do. You don't move as one anymore like you used to. In this situation, I really needed to get this team together in person to work through this.

But the T&E budget had been slashed to basically zero in that organization. In my opinion, that was where we would call a penny wise and pound foolish decision.

But the T&E budget had been slashed to basically zero in that organization. In my opinion, that was where we would call a penny wise and pound foolish decision.

to cut those T&E budgets across the company because the team all agreed once we were able to get together to push hard for an exception to that T&E budget situation that we did the work that they really needed to do with a vigorous and proper assessment of what is going on, what is in the way, why has the team performance deteriorated, why were they in a split battle.

to cut those T&E budgets across the company because the team all agreed once we were able to get together to push hard for an exception to that T&E budget situation that we did the work that they really needed to do with a vigorous and proper assessment of what is going on, what is in the way, why has the team performance deteriorated, why were they in a split battle.

It was an incredibly powerful time that we spent together, but we all agreed it should have been six to nine months earlier. But there was this sort of resistance to make getting an exception to the T&E budget flash to getting on a plane to fly for this meeting. I do think the resistance comes from both sides, but one of the things that we do have to accept...

It was an incredibly powerful time that we spent together, but we all agreed it should have been six to nine months earlier. But there was this sort of resistance to make getting an exception to the T&E budget flash to getting on a plane to fly for this meeting. I do think the resistance comes from both sides, but one of the things that we do have to accept...

in today's more virtual, more global world is you might not feel like getting on that plane. I certainly know I don't at times, but you do need to make complex decisions together and you need to deal with team dynamics together in person.

in today's more virtual, more global world is you might not feel like getting on that plane. I certainly know I don't at times, but you do need to make complex decisions together and you need to deal with team dynamics together in person.

I really think most leadership teams probably need to be together at least once a quarter in person, despite the personal hardship and the extra cost associated with this. Yeah. Now, I will say separately, I don't think that the cause or the contributions to politics are as simple as these little catchphrases like power corrupts.

I really think most leadership teams probably need to be together at least once a quarter in person, despite the personal hardship and the extra cost associated with this. Yeah. Now, I will say separately, I don't think that the cause or the contributions to politics are as simple as these little catchphrases like power corrupts.

because I see too many leaders who are not corrupted by power, and I see too many ambitious people who maintain their ethics and integrity all the way up the ladder, and they don't. And so I don't believe in it as simple or as trite as something like power corrupt.

because I see too many leaders who are not corrupted by power, and I see too many ambitious people who maintain their ethics and integrity all the way up the ladder, and they don't. And so I don't believe in it as simple or as trite as something like power corrupt.

Now, if what I'm saying sounds completely nightly to some of your listeners, I would say to those listeners most emphatically, you have been working at the wrong places. In 30 plus years, I've been coaching and advising leaders. I have a clear-eyed certainty around this. The majority of leaders are not political animals, if you will.

Now, if what I'm saying sounds completely nightly to some of your listeners, I would say to those listeners most emphatically, you have been working at the wrong places. In 30 plus years, I've been coaching and advising leaders. I have a clear-eyed certainty around this. The majority of leaders are not political animals, if you will.

In fact, some situations that seem political on the surface are not as political as they seem, but they're more a matter of... Complete lack of alignment around strategy and not dealing with that. And some of that stems from people lacking any kind of understanding of how to resolve conflict effectively. Read other people's signals. Adapt to their needs. Read situations.

In fact, some situations that seem political on the surface are not as political as they seem, but they're more a matter of... Complete lack of alignment around strategy and not dealing with that. And some of that stems from people lacking any kind of understanding of how to resolve conflict effectively. Read other people's signals. Adapt to their needs. Read situations.

Lead and inspire people to change. These are the more advanced interpersonal skills. And I will say, certainly, if those are lacking at the top, it tends to trickle down as well and feed these power battles and these political dynamics. And does any of that sound familiar or make sense, Vince, from your point of view?

Lead and inspire people to change. These are the more advanced interpersonal skills. And I will say, certainly, if those are lacking at the top, it tends to trickle down as well and feed these power battles and these political dynamics. And does any of that sound familiar or make sense, Vince, from your point of view?

Yes, both, actually. And it's interesting to build, for most businesses, to build a strong team, to build trust among that team, and to not have people competing against one another, but working together. against the competition, right? Directing their competitive myth there. We have ample evidence that for most businesses, that is the way to build your leadership team, right?

Yes, both, actually. And it's interesting to build, for most businesses, to build a strong team, to build trust among that team, and to not have people competing against one another, but working together. against the competition, right? Directing their competitive myth there. We have ample evidence that for most businesses, that is the way to build your leadership team, right?

And not the way in which you're just looking at each person as a chess piece. And so at times in those situations, you may have someone who is in fact a narcissist, right? That is that thing that is beyond our control. You may have someone who learned that from a prior boss, from their schooling, from their family of origin.

And not the way in which you're just looking at each person as a chess piece. And so at times in those situations, you may have someone who is in fact a narcissist, right? That is that thing that is beyond our control. You may have someone who learned that from a prior boss, from their schooling, from their family of origin.

I still think a lot of leaders out there are running around with what I would consider to be an outdate notion of leadership, that it is somehow about results versus results.

I still think a lot of leaders out there are running around with what I would consider to be an outdate notion of leadership, that it is somehow about results versus results.

teamwork when what we see largely is that the stronger teams get the better results and so the two are not holding but in fact the one enabled the other and so i can say certainly i've had some clients who were pretty mercenary When I first started working with them and they became some of the most dedicated and devoted clients in the long run.

teamwork when what we see largely is that the stronger teams get the better results and so the two are not holding but in fact the one enabled the other and so i can say certainly i've had some clients who were pretty mercenary When I first started working with them and they became some of the most dedicated and devoted clients in the long run.

But I really had to crack them open or crack them over the head, in a manner of speaking, to get them to see this huge, quite naive disconnect that they were making between people and results. And so some of those folks have become some of our best clients and some of our highest performers over the years.

But I really had to crack them open or crack them over the head, in a manner of speaking, to get them to see this huge, quite naive disconnect that they were making between people and results. And so some of those folks have become some of our best clients and some of our highest performers over the years.

Now, as far as what someone would want to do in a situation like that, if they're not, they believe that they're not contributing to these power dynamics, but they're just on the receiving end of them is a little bit different. And that's where I think you do need to take a look at how you want to approach this. What is most important to you?

Now, as far as what someone would want to do in a situation like that, if they're not, they believe that they're not contributing to these power dynamics, but they're just on the receiving end of them is a little bit different. And that's where I think you do need to take a look at how you want to approach this. What is most important to you?

I think there are five things that you really need to look at. And I think you want to do these more or less in sequence. The first one, interestingly, is to stop fighting. And you won't believe this, but stop venting to not solve problems. And in fact, staying in that mode of venting and complaining about the situation actually feeds the neural networks that don't resolve anything. Right.

I think there are five things that you really need to look at. And I think you want to do these more or less in sequence. The first one, interestingly, is to stop fighting. And you won't believe this, but stop venting to not solve problems. And in fact, staying in that mode of venting and complaining about the situation actually feeds the neural networks that don't resolve anything. Right.

It feeds the neural networks that are more survival-based, right, to keep you in that more survival-based mode. But actually staying in that mode doesn't help you to be a better problem solver, right? And if you think of politics as a problem to be solved like any other, you really need to get your brain going with every possible strength that it has. The second one is step back and analyze things.

It feeds the neural networks that are more survival-based, right, to keep you in that more survival-based mode. But actually staying in that mode doesn't help you to be a better problem solver, right? And if you think of politics as a problem to be solved like any other, you really need to get your brain going with every possible strength that it has. The second one is step back and analyze things.

with a certain curiosity and even some empathy. Be curious about it versus frustrated by it, even if you can only maintain that curiosity for a few minutes as an alternative to your frustration and anger. And so say, I'm really curious. I wonder why someone would think that would produce a good result. I wonder why someone would behave in that way. I wonder what's going on with them.

with a certain curiosity and even some empathy. Be curious about it versus frustrated by it, even if you can only maintain that curiosity for a few minutes as an alternative to your frustration and anger. And so say, I'm really curious. I wonder why someone would think that would produce a good result. I wonder why someone would behave in that way. I wonder what's going on with them.

And the individual that person reported to, I guess you could say was my core client, actually concluded that he needed to go find a better opportunity for this guy because this guy was absolutely not going to change in his own style to what was needed there. And he wasn't going to change in his fundamental beliefs about what the strategy should be of that division. And I learned a lot.

And the individual that person reported to, I guess you could say was my core client, actually concluded that he needed to go find a better opportunity for this guy because this guy was absolutely not going to change in his own style to what was needed there. And he wasn't going to change in his fundamental beliefs about what the strategy should be of that division. And I learned a lot.

from that, from watching him, because he was an extraordinary role model of not letting that judge and that hyperachiever neural network drive you to do something stupid, right? Instead of trying to force this guy to go along or to try to butt heads with him endlessly, he saw that he had tried that and it didn't work.

from that, from watching him, because he was an extraordinary role model of not letting that judge and that hyperachiever neural network drive you to do something stupid, right? Instead of trying to force this guy to go along or to try to butt heads with him endlessly, he saw that he had tried that and it didn't work.

He actually went and advocated that this other man should head one of the most exciting new divisions that the company was creating. And this man did go over and do that. And he did lead that division in its early days quite well, because in part, he didn't need to change to lead that. He was already established. Kind of reasonably well suited to it.

He actually went and advocated that this other man should head one of the most exciting new divisions that the company was creating. And this man did go over and do that. And he did lead that division in its early days quite well, because in part, he didn't need to change to lead that. He was already established. Kind of reasonably well suited to it.

And so it was extremely enlightening to me because until my client made that decision and that commitment, we struggled. We really struggled. That team had been brought together through two acquisitions. That team was so far behind Vince. They actually had worked very hard on two software releases.

And so it was extremely enlightening to me because until my client made that decision and that commitment, we struggled. We really struggled. That team had been brought together through two acquisitions. That team was so far behind Vince. They actually had worked very hard on two software releases.

that they had to literally cast aside because they fell so far behind because they did not move as one that the other technology leapfrogged it and it no longer was appropriate, right? It no longer fit with the company's other technology. So this was an organization that was in crisis. And it was when he was able to just recognize, hey, this is a failed exercise, right?

that they had to literally cast aside because they fell so far behind because they did not move as one that the other technology leapfrogged it and it no longer was appropriate, right? It no longer fit with the company's other technology. So this was an organization that was in crisis. And it was when he was able to just recognize, hey, this is a failed exercise, right?

We cannot bring this guy along to where we need to. And I'm going to stop trying. It was this was, by the way, about 20 years ago. And so I found myself really admiring and recognizing the joy of learning something about change from one of my own clients. Whereas usually I'm the one in the teacher's seat.

We cannot bring this guy along to where we need to. And I'm going to stop trying. It was this was, by the way, about 20 years ago. And so I found myself really admiring and recognizing the joy of learning something about change from one of my own clients. Whereas usually I'm the one in the teacher's seat.

And I really learned deeply from that experience because me on that idealist, I never want to give up on anybody. And so it was so helpful for me to see someone willing to say, I think we need to give up on this. This is not succeeding. And we need to not judge the efforts that we made to make it succeed. We need to find a totally different path here. Totally and completely different.

And I really learned deeply from that experience because me on that idealist, I never want to give up on anybody. And so it was so helpful for me to see someone willing to say, I think we need to give up on this. This is not succeeding. And we need to not judge the efforts that we made to make it succeed. We need to find a totally different path here. Totally and completely different.

It was fantastic and so eye-opening for me. So eye-opening.

It was fantastic and so eye-opening for me. So eye-opening.

Yes, I think that there are a lot of parallels to Bill Bridge's model, but something that you said there about his third, his unfreeze again, his third and final stage is that you emerge with a new identity. And I think that this is so vital for us as leaders to understand that when we are asking our people to make a significant change,

Yes, I think that there are a lot of parallels to Bill Bridge's model, but something that you said there about his third, his unfreeze again, his third and final stage is that you emerge with a new identity. And I think that this is so vital for us as leaders to understand that when we are asking our people to make a significant change,

they often do have a change in their fundamental identity or how they see themselves. And it can be hard to recognize because often in the leadership role, we already see them in that way. If we didn't see that they had the potential collectively and individually

they often do have a change in their fundamental identity or how they see themselves. And it can be hard to recognize because often in the leadership role, we already see them in that way. If we didn't see that they had the potential collectively and individually

to make this change successful, we probably wouldn't have started down that path, or we wouldn't have brought in some different people to lead them. So it is so vital to understand that you're not, change management is about hitting the target, right?

to make this change successful, we probably wouldn't have started down that path, or we wouldn't have brought in some different people to lead them. So it is so vital to understand that you're not, change management is about hitting the target, right?

Implementing the change on time, within budget, to a set standard, but this can actually be much more profound for others than we recognize because they can come out of it with a new identity. Think of, for example, my clients who are financial analysts. Today, even just as recently as three years ago, the technology didn't really exist for them to spend the bulk of their time

Implementing the change on time, within budget, to a set standard, but this can actually be much more profound for others than we recognize because they can come out of it with a new identity. Think of, for example, my clients who are financial analysts. Today, even just as recently as three years ago, the technology didn't really exist for them to spend the bulk of their time

Truly advising senior business leaders on what they should be doing in the business. They had very little time to say things like, hey, here's a market force that I see going on in Japan. And I think we need to focus 40% more of our sales effort there on this product line. No way. They were too busy being Excel jockeys, right? Today, that technology has come a very long way.

Truly advising senior business leaders on what they should be doing in the business. They had very little time to say things like, hey, here's a market force that I see going on in Japan. And I think we need to focus 40% more of our sales effort there on this product line. No way. They were too busy being Excel jockeys, right? Today, that technology has come a very long way.

But what happens to someone who for 10 years has been spending most of their time, maybe not real happily, but spending most of their time just getting those numbers accurate? And now suddenly you are telling them that within a matter of months, those leaders are going to be able to press a button and see the data that you used to have put together for them.

But what happens to someone who for 10 years has been spending most of their time, maybe not real happily, but spending most of their time just getting those numbers accurate? And now suddenly you are telling them that within a matter of months, those leaders are going to be able to press a button and see the data that you used to have put together for them.

And they are now going to turn to you and say, what should I do? Or what happens when the leader doesn't turn to them and say, what should I do? Now, suddenly it's a new identity and they're recognizing they have to earn it. They have to earn that credibility as something more than a master Excel jockey. And that is terrifying. That's terrifying. That's a whole new set of skills.

And they are now going to turn to you and say, what should I do? Or what happens when the leader doesn't turn to them and say, what should I do? Now, suddenly it's a new identity and they're recognizing they have to earn it. They have to earn that credibility as something more than a master Excel jockey. And that is terrifying. That's terrifying. That's a whole new set of skills.

They're going to have to learn how to convert that data into a story. They're going to have to learn how to influence. They're going to have to learn how to read that person and speak in their language. It's terrifying. It's terrifying. And so really recognizing that people are going to come out of this change with a new identity helps you as a leader

They're going to have to learn how to convert that data into a story. They're going to have to learn how to influence. They're going to have to learn how to read that person and speak in their language. It's terrifying. It's terrifying. And so really recognizing that people are going to come out of this change with a new identity helps you as a leader

to have that empathy on the path and to be able to really encourage and support them and put in place what they need to get there that you otherwise might not have recognized whether it's training and develop mentoring coaching whatever it may be that they're going to need i'm really glad you brought up the freeze unfreeze freeze model because that new identity in the last stage is the single most important part of that model

to have that empathy on the path and to be able to really encourage and support them and put in place what they need to get there that you otherwise might not have recognized whether it's training and develop mentoring coaching whatever it may be that they're going to need i'm really glad you brought up the freeze unfreeze freeze model because that new identity in the last stage is the single most important part of that model

The wind sometimes looks different at the end than we thought it would at the beginning. So I think absolutely it's fair to step back throughout the change and say, this is what we thought the wind would look like. Is this still true? Or have we come across new information and new learnings along the way that allow us to see what the wind looks like differently?

The wind sometimes looks different at the end than we thought it would at the beginning. So I think absolutely it's fair to step back throughout the change and say, this is what we thought the wind would look like. Is this still true? Or have we come across new information and new learnings along the way that allow us to see what the wind looks like differently?

So I think that's entirely valid because it might not look like you have a win yet, but maybe you do. Maybe it looks different than you think. Maybe what you have here is a small win along the way that you need to celebrate for the progress, even if they've not quite yet gotten to where you see that they could be in the long run. Because certainly when we look at those results,

So I think that's entirely valid because it might not look like you have a win yet, but maybe you do. Maybe it looks different than you think. Maybe what you have here is a small win along the way that you need to celebrate for the progress, even if they've not quite yet gotten to where you see that they could be in the long run. Because certainly when we look at those results,

Those key elements. As a leader, you're not doing change alone. Even if it's a personal change, I bet you have friends or family members that come along. And one of those foundations that you really need to attend to is celebrating the dickens out of wins that are so small that you wouldn't normally think to celebrate them.

Those key elements. As a leader, you're not doing change alone. Even if it's a personal change, I bet you have friends or family members that come along. And one of those foundations that you really need to attend to is celebrating the dickens out of wins that are so small that you wouldn't normally think to celebrate them.

Because this requires that you focus a lot more of your attention on what's working in the win, in, sorry, in the change versus focusing your attention on what's not working. And guess what? Those saboteurs are hardwired to focus on what's not working.

Because this requires that you focus a lot more of your attention on what's working in the win, in, sorry, in the change versus focusing your attention on what's not working. And guess what? Those saboteurs are hardwired to focus on what's not working.

But there is ample evidence that a great deal of attention on what's working and doing more of that is correlated with getting to that organizational outcome. And the classic sense, we're going to define those outcomes as, for example, a positive change in the stock price. But that's a really hard one for, say, an individual employee to connect to their business

But there is ample evidence that a great deal of attention on what's working and doing more of that is correlated with getting to that organizational outcome. And the classic sense, we're going to define those outcomes as, for example, a positive change in the stock price. But that's a really hard one for, say, an individual employee to connect to their business

progress through the change, isn't it? That's so big, right? One person out of hundreds or thousands saying the stock price moved after we were able to implement this large scale system, but it's hard to see the individual connection. So I think that also speaks to something that is so extraordinarily important, which is connecting your vision to their big whys, not yours, not the company's.

progress through the change, isn't it? That's so big, right? One person out of hundreds or thousands saying the stock price moved after we were able to implement this large scale system, but it's hard to see the individual connection. So I think that also speaks to something that is so extraordinarily important, which is connecting your vision to their big whys, not yours, not the company's.

They're being wise. It goes back to that personal vision. What does that success mean to you individually? Not just the company, but for you as an individual, what's the alignment there? People will move mountains for you if they really understand how this large scale change is connected to something more than a bump up in the stock price.

They're being wise. It goes back to that personal vision. What does that success mean to you individually? Not just the company, but for you as an individual, what's the alignment there? People will move mountains for you if they really understand how this large scale change is connected to something more than a bump up in the stock price.

It's such a great question. And as you were talking about this experience of you leave, you're starting a business, you see your colleagues get promoted. They're still sitting in their six-figure incomes. Oh, believe me, that one resonates with me personally. And it's not a straight line.

It's such a great question. And as you were talking about this experience of you leave, you're starting a business, you see your colleagues get promoted. They're still sitting in their six-figure incomes. Oh, believe me, that one resonates with me personally. And it's not a straight line.

or a decrease in operational overhead, but to them, their personal big whys.

or a decrease in operational overhead, but to them, their personal big whys.

I'm so glad you asked about this because I've had this conversation with so many people over the years. And I was having this conversation with someone whose boss was a micromanager and it was driving him nuts. And I sat down and said, this would be a great blog post. And this was when people were blogging on LinkedIn, that LinkedIn post garnered 45,000 views and counting.

I'm so glad you asked about this because I've had this conversation with so many people over the years. And I was having this conversation with someone whose boss was a micromanager and it was driving him nuts. And I sat down and said, this would be a great blog post. And this was when people were blogging on LinkedIn, that LinkedIn post garnered 45,000 views and counting.

It was shared out on the main thread through that weekend. I have never, I'm a coach. I'm not a famous person. I have never had so many views on a LinkedIn post or a blog in my life. And I recognize that This is a really big deal. Everyone faces this, right? Everyone faces this at some time.

It was shared out on the main thread through that weekend. I have never, I'm a coach. I'm not a famous person. I have never had so many views on a LinkedIn post or a blog in my life. And I recognize that This is a really big deal. Everyone faces this, right? Everyone faces this at some time.

And, you know, what happens when we exit a situation because our boss is ineffective, we're running from something versus running to something. But of course, making a change because you're running away from something usually doesn't pan out as well as when you're running towards something.

And, you know, what happens when we exit a situation because our boss is ineffective, we're running from something versus running to something. But of course, making a change because you're running away from something usually doesn't pan out as well as when you're running towards something.

When I started this business, which is actually my second business, a few years after it started, we hit the dot-com bust. And the business sank, right? And really struggled. And then again, we got hit in 2008 when the economy collapsed in the United States. And it is so easy to fall into the self-sabotage. The reason, though, is really interesting.

When I started this business, which is actually my second business, a few years after it started, we hit the dot-com bust. And the business sank, right? And really struggled. And then again, we got hit in 2008 when the economy collapsed in the United States. And it is so easy to fall into the self-sabotage. The reason, though, is really interesting.

So I think there are three mistakes that I really see that these talented professionals making when they find themselves working for an ineffective boss. The first one is playing psychologist. Oh, passive-aggressive.

So I think there are three mistakes that I really see that these talented professionals making when they find themselves working for an ineffective boss. The first one is playing psychologist. Oh, passive-aggressive.

bad childhood won't make a decision commitment phobic right these may or may not be real issues that your boss is facing who knows but when you again this is the judge in action when you're playing psychologist with the ineffective boss you're inadvertently disempowering yourself because you're hypothesizing about a psychological issue that even if it turns out you're right you can't personally treat it you're not the psychologist right

bad childhood won't make a decision commitment phobic right these may or may not be real issues that your boss is facing who knows but when you again this is the judge in action when you're playing psychologist with the ineffective boss you're inadvertently disempowering yourself because you're hypothesizing about a psychological issue that even if it turns out you're right you can't personally treat it you're not the psychologist right

So if you find yourself starting to go down that path of that judging, that negative emotion, just let it go. Second one, losing perspective by getting attached to one and only one solution. And And I've seen this many times in which the individual is saying, I have to persevere.

So if you find yourself starting to go down that path of that judging, that negative emotion, just let it go. Second one, losing perspective by getting attached to one and only one solution. And And I've seen this many times in which the individual is saying, I have to persevere.

I have to turn this product line around no matter how much my funding gets cut or how often my boss and her boss change direction or I must get a big win so that boss can see how wrong he is or whatever. A common one. I'm going to HR and I'm not giving up until they fight for what's right.

I have to turn this product line around no matter how much my funding gets cut or how often my boss and her boss change direction or I must get a big win so that boss can see how wrong he is or whatever. A common one. I'm going to HR and I'm not giving up until they fight for what's right.

Now, there's just rarely one clear-cut superior solution to the myriad problems that are caused by an ineffective boss. But there are probably better solutions and there are certainly more options. Shirzad Shamim calls it... Turning on your explore neural network where you open up to exploring more solutions to the problem before you jump ship. Right?

Now, there's just rarely one clear-cut superior solution to the myriad problems that are caused by an ineffective boss. But there are probably better solutions and there are certainly more options. Shirzad Shamim calls it... Turning on your explore neural network where you open up to exploring more solutions to the problem before you jump ship. Right?

A third one is creating an emotional sinkhole by making it personal or taking sides in political battles. So we get this little dynamic, right? Your ineffective boss leads to lower performance on the team, which leads to stress. which leads to making it personal and taking sides in what we might call a backside covering political battle.

A third one is creating an emotional sinkhole by making it personal or taking sides in political battles. So we get this little dynamic, right? Your ineffective boss leads to lower performance on the team, which leads to stress. which leads to making it personal and taking sides in what we might call a backside covering political battle.

So when you find yourself thinking about your boss in these kind of sweeping terms, and again, you feel your judge coming on, you recognize that you're only feeding the intensely negative energy that's there. And it does nothing to help you. It does nothing to help your teammates, the people around you.

So when you find yourself thinking about your boss in these kind of sweeping terms, and again, you feel your judge coming on, you recognize that you're only feeding the intensely negative energy that's there. And it does nothing to help you. It does nothing to help your teammates, the people around you.

So instead, there are really five things that I think you can try to view the situation from a different perspective and then handle it in a way that's going to work well for you, whether that's staying in it or making that leap toward another job or toward starting your own business. The first one, step back from that situation and first size up the degree that

So instead, there are really five things that I think you can try to view the situation from a different perspective and then handle it in a way that's going to work well for you, whether that's staying in it or making that leap toward another job or toward starting your own business. The first one, step back from that situation and first size up the degree that

to which his or her incompetence is truly affecting you sure it's disappointing when your boss routine routinely lets you down but maybe slowing down your professional growth for a few months because they're new to the role and they're not good at it yet

to which his or her incompetence is truly affecting you sure it's disappointing when your boss routine routinely lets you down but maybe slowing down your professional growth for a few months because they're new to the role and they're not good at it yet

That's one thing, but that's not in the same league as your entire bonus being on the line or even worse, your personal reputation being put in jeopardy with people you respect because the boss is ineffective. So size it up. It's a reflective exercise. It's subjective. It looks different for you from someone else. And even for you in different situations at different times in your life.

That's one thing, but that's not in the same league as your entire bonus being on the line or even worse, your personal reputation being put in jeopardy with people you respect because the boss is ineffective. So size it up. It's a reflective exercise. It's subjective. It looks different for you from someone else. And even for you in different situations at different times in your life.

But it helps you calibrate that situation a little bit. Quiet down those nasty saboteurs so that you're calibrating it to your unique needs, right? Is it short term and you just want to let it stop bothering you before you make a big change?

But it helps you calibrate that situation a little bit. Quiet down those nasty saboteurs so that you're calibrating it to your unique needs, right? Is it short term and you just want to let it stop bothering you before you make a big change?

or is this something that's really added up and you need to go and you just need to do that secondly assess if you're in a politically messy situation oh i hate this tip but if you do think you're in a politically messy situation you do have to begin some basic defensive action right employees have lost their jobs due to ineffective managers who failed to protect them Right?

or is this something that's really added up and you need to go and you just need to do that secondly assess if you're in a politically messy situation oh i hate this tip but if you do think you're in a politically messy situation you do have to begin some basic defensive action right employees have lost their jobs due to ineffective managers who failed to protect them Right?

So if you sense that level of risk and you feel it's important to keep your job, oh, it pains me, but you got to start documenting conversations, agreements. You got to document open items and follow up emails after conversations. Try to have more group conversations.

So if you sense that level of risk and you feel it's important to keep your job, oh, it pains me, but you got to start documenting conversations, agreements. You got to document open items and follow up emails after conversations. Try to have more group conversations.

Oh, God, I just want to gag when I say this, but look, if you objectively size it up as politically messy, start doing those basic defensive actions. And no matter what, you must maintain your composure in a politically messy situation, no matter how absurd it becomes. The most absurd one to date is one that happened to a client about 24 years ago.

Oh, God, I just want to gag when I say this, but look, if you objectively size it up as politically messy, start doing those basic defensive actions. And no matter what, you must maintain your composure in a politically messy situation, no matter how absurd it becomes. The most absurd one to date is one that happened to a client about 24 years ago.

he found himself receiving the wrong performance review from his general manager, who mixed him up with another direct report and launched into the review she'd prepared for the other man. Now, I will admit, these two gentlemen were both Scandinavian. They looked a lot alike, but come on, they weren't twins. So he just maintained his composure,

he found himself receiving the wrong performance review from his general manager, who mixed him up with another direct report and launched into the review she'd prepared for the other man. Now, I will admit, these two gentlemen were both Scandinavian. They looked a lot alike, but come on, they weren't twins. So he just maintained his composure,

He also made sure he paid more attention to having accurate data about his performance in writing, which did prove to be helpful later. And please don't become ultra paranoid. Please don't stop trying to build a positive working relationship. Even in this situation, it is still good to try to build a positive working relationship.

He also made sure he paid more attention to having accurate data about his performance in writing, which did prove to be helpful later. And please don't become ultra paranoid. Please don't stop trying to build a positive working relationship. Even in this situation, it is still good to try to build a positive working relationship.

A couple more consider multiple ways to deal with the situation, right? Is the ineffectiveness entrenched? Or is the boss just having a bumpy transition? Look at options like going out of your way to ensure that the team achieves its goals while the boss gets up to speed on new responsibilities. Or if there's something that you recognize, the boss is always going to be ineffective at this part.

A couple more consider multiple ways to deal with the situation, right? Is the ineffectiveness entrenched? Or is the boss just having a bumpy transition? Look at options like going out of your way to ensure that the team achieves its goals while the boss gets up to speed on new responsibilities. Or if there's something that you recognize, the boss is always going to be ineffective at this part.

the AD, C-H-A-M-I-N-E, Shirzad Shamim. And he writes a great deal about the neuroscience of this because that self-sabotage is something that develops in very early childhood. It is almost entirely wired into our brains by the time we're five years old. Now, why is that in there? Those saboteurs, as he calls them, are neural networks that very tiny children develop to ensure their survival.

the AD, C-H-A-M-I-N-E, Shirzad Shamim. And he writes a great deal about the neuroscience of this because that self-sabotage is something that develops in very early childhood. It is almost entirely wired into our brains by the time we're five years old. Now, why is that in there? Those saboteurs, as he calls them, are neural networks that very tiny children develop to ensure their survival.

Offer to help out in an area that your boss doesn't enjoy and doesn't do well. I had one client who's great at team building, initiated team building outing. This boss just isn't good at that. I had another one who is great, has an eagle eye on a project plan, just offer to validate that project plan because she could see she's always going to be better at it than the boss. And then...

Offer to help out in an area that your boss doesn't enjoy and doesn't do well. I had one client who's great at team building, initiated team building outing. This boss just isn't good at that. I had another one who is great, has an eagle eye on a project plan, just offer to validate that project plan because she could see she's always going to be better at it than the boss. And then...

honestly this one's a little touchy but honestly ask yourself is it that the boss is completely ineffective or are you resisting adapting to a change that the boss is implementing so gosh it's painful to admit right that it might be that the strategy is sound but you hate it or you just don't buy into the direction

honestly this one's a little touchy but honestly ask yourself is it that the boss is completely ineffective or are you resisting adapting to a change that the boss is implementing so gosh it's painful to admit right that it might be that the strategy is sound but you hate it or you just don't buy into the direction

And if that's the case, at least you're recognizing you're resisting adapting to this change. You don't wanna go along with it. And so in that situation, you have a choice. You can either say, you know what? I'm gonna voice my concerns. And I'm going to commit to making it successful for as long as I'm here because that's my job. That's what I'm here to do, right?

And if that's the case, at least you're recognizing you're resisting adapting to this change. You don't wanna go along with it. And so in that situation, you have a choice. You can either say, you know what? I'm gonna voice my concerns. And I'm going to commit to making it successful for as long as I'm here because that's my job. That's what I'm here to do, right?

Or you're going to decide from a healthier, more grounded place. This change just isn't for you and you are going to leave. And maybe that's when you are going to go to build that business. But you're going to do it in a way that is very positive and constructive for those people around you and for yourself.

Or you're going to decide from a healthier, more grounded place. This change just isn't for you and you are going to leave. And maybe that's when you are going to go to build that business. But you're going to do it in a way that is very positive and constructive for those people around you and for yourself.

Because you'll have made a more intentional, informed choice rather than a choice that's driven by unexamined and unconscious feelings. That's when you wind up just working for a different flavor of a bad boss. Does that help?

Because you'll have made a more intentional, informed choice rather than a choice that's driven by unexamined and unconscious feelings. That's when you wind up just working for a different flavor of a bad boss. Does that help?

Absolutely. Politics can exist for a couple of different reasons. And I think it's important to recognize which of those situations you're in. So politics can exist for extremely unhealthy reasons in all seriousness, because you have a leader at the top who quite literally has a personality disorder.

Absolutely. Politics can exist for a couple of different reasons. And I think it's important to recognize which of those situations you're in. So politics can exist for extremely unhealthy reasons in all seriousness, because you have a leader at the top who quite literally has a personality disorder.

Now, people who suffer from that problem often aren't aware that they're suffering from it, but also do not respond to coaching. And the politics that they drive are from a whole different place. And it is going to be extremely difficult in that environment to manage your way through the politics and to drive change.

Now, people who suffer from that problem often aren't aware that they're suffering from it, but also do not respond to coaching. And the politics that they drive are from a whole different place. And it is going to be extremely difficult in that environment to manage your way through the politics and to drive change.

And that is one whole animal that is just beyond the scope, I think, of what we could cover in this particular episode of the podcast. But the other driver, which I find much, much more common, is that politics exists because people have different needs. And because people have different skill levels.

And that is one whole animal that is just beyond the scope, I think, of what we could cover in this particular episode of the podcast. But the other driver, which I find much, much more common, is that politics exists because people have different needs. And because people have different skill levels.

And so someone who is particularly good at recognizing the needs of the people who wield the most power is going to be better at figuring out how to get those people on board with the change, right? And so it becomes, so again, it's so funny that politics triggers our saboteurs, make us want to defend ourselves, right? They are all about survival.

And so someone who is particularly good at recognizing the needs of the people who wield the most power is going to be better at figuring out how to get those people on board with the change, right? And so it becomes, so again, it's so funny that politics triggers our saboteurs, make us want to defend ourselves, right? They are all about survival.

But in fact, we circle right back to empathy because being able to understand and empathize the competing needs of the many stakeholders involved in a change is the path forward. It is the path forward. You cannot move through the creative process that you need to have to construct that change in such a way that it meets multiple needs.

But in fact, we circle right back to empathy because being able to understand and empathize the competing needs of the many stakeholders involved in a change is the path forward. It is the path forward. You cannot move through the creative process that you need to have to construct that change in such a way that it meets multiple needs.

You will not, without empathy, be able to bring together leaders who need to come together and who don't especially want to. So that, again, is the foundation. Above and beyond that, multiple steps. And maybe that's the subject for another podcast. But you will want to defend yourself against politics. But...

You will not, without empathy, be able to bring together leaders who need to come together and who don't especially want to. So that, again, is the foundation. Above and beyond that, multiple steps. And maybe that's the subject for another podcast. But you will want to defend yourself against politics. But...

Opening yourself up to really putting yourself in the shoes of all of these people who seem to have power that perhaps you think they don't deserve is the foundation to understanding what's going on and to being able to navigate or, as I like to think of it, surf your way through those political waves and those choppy waters.

Opening yourself up to really putting yourself in the shoes of all of these people who seem to have power that perhaps you think they don't deserve is the foundation to understanding what's going on and to being able to navigate or, as I like to think of it, surf your way through those political waves and those choppy waters.

If a little tiny kid recognized that their parents were not infallible, which is actually true,

If a little tiny kid recognized that their parents were not infallible, which is actually true,

it would be terrifying because they cannot care for themselves right so these neural networks form as a vital part of early childhood they're just part of that survival mechanism however in adulthood we don't need those anymore but at that point they're really strong they've been there for decades right getting stronger and stronger and they're just lurking in there

it would be terrifying because they cannot care for themselves right so these neural networks form as a vital part of early childhood they're just part of that survival mechanism however in adulthood we don't need those anymore but at that point they're really strong they've been there for decades right getting stronger and stronger and they're just lurking in there

And I want to really convey the important message that when you start to feel yourself self-sabotaged, that's not you. That's the saboteur neural networks in your mind firing up. That's all that is. And they're sitting in there and they jump out. when they get a signal that indicates that there's a threat to survival.

And I want to really convey the important message that when you start to feel yourself self-sabotaged, that's not you. That's the saboteur neural networks in your mind firing up. That's all that is. And they're sitting in there and they jump out. when they get a signal that indicates that there's a threat to survival.

Of course, if you go after a contract in your new business and you work really hard on it, you put all this time into it. When you were an employee, if that contract didn't close, you still got your paycheck. But now all of a sudden, you're looking at, can I pay my rent? Can I make my mortgage? So that, of course, your brain fires that up as risk to survival. And so the saboteurs jump in there.

Of course, if you go after a contract in your new business and you work really hard on it, you put all this time into it. When you were an employee, if that contract didn't close, you still got your paycheck. But now all of a sudden, you're looking at, can I pay my rent? Can I make my mortgage? So that, of course, your brain fires that up as risk to survival. And so the saboteurs jump in there.