Jesse Michels

we're probably not at the top of the food chain and there's like something else going on.

Yeah, yeah.

And I think that's a great framing because I think...

in isolation, like most cases are probably, you can probably corroborate them to the point of being like, there's probably something that happened there.

And then I think they'll always be skeptics in any individual case.

And I would point people to, there's a, Edgar Mitchell was an Apollo astronaut in the Apollo 14 mission.

And he came back and he started basically systematically studying this stuff because he thought we were not alone in the universe.

And so I'd point people to

the free Edgar Mitchell database of abduction cases.

And they can go through a lot of these cases and they can talk to a lot of these people themselves.

I think it's probably important if you are somebody who is earnestly interested in the subject to not just take my word for, you know, any of these sorts of stories and to try to meet, you know, experiencers themselves and be like, you know, what happened?

Like, and, and go into like, you know, are you sure you're not making that up?

And like, be as skeptical as you sort of want.

But yeah,

I don't know, a couple of really famous cases are you have Travis Walton in the mid-70s.

He was in a national park in Arizona, and he was actually with a bunch of friends, and they were loggers.

And they had finished their work at the end of the day, and they see this weird bright light in the object.

They're all in the car, and he's still out.

In the sky, bright light in the sky.

They see a bright light in the sky, but then they see it on the forest floor and they see it near Travis.