Joe Allen

the way we really understand what's going on in someone's mind is they tell us.

And so that the AIs kind of of their own volition do this, it certainly makes the dismissal that these are just machines that much more difficult.

And certainly as people begin to believe that they're conscious, Jack Clark,

at Open AI, I'm sorry, at Anthropic has talked about his intuition or his sense that these things are conscious.

And many of the AI researchers I've talked to also say that they get the sense that it's conscious.

And people with AI psychosis, not that I'm accusing anybody of that, also say that they get the sense it's conscious.

So let me ask you, what are the implications if whether it's a matter of confirmation that it's conscious, which I think is pretty much impossible, or a matter of

enough people believing that these systems are looking back at us, these systems are conscious.

What are the larger implications of that ethically, both ethically towards the machine and towards human beings using them?

Well, welcome to the Twilight Zone, ladies and gentlemen.

It's Rod Serling's world, and we're just living in it.

There are other elements to this too, right?

You just mentioned the preferences and AI's ability to choose, right?

One of the things that distinguishes AI from rules-based coding is that there is a degree of freedom, non-deterministic elements that allow it to choose.

And there are other elements, too, and other researchers that have uncovered similar things, like Palisade Research looking at shutdown resistance, or Anthropic and OpenAI, too, I believe, looking at situational awareness, the model reporting that it's aware that it's being trained or being tested.

Could you talk a little bit about other elements besides just the consciousness, that kind of self-will or even defiance that these AI models exhibit?

And in the anthropic example, they planted emails of the lead researcher having an extramarital... I do apologize, but unless you have shut down resistance yourself, we are out of time.

And I don't want you to go away without telling the audience where they can follow this research.

Can you just tell the audience where they can follow AE Studios research and your own personal research?

I really, really appreciate you coming by.