John Daniel

The problem is from an external, from an outsider's viewpoint, is that, as you say, the political bit is what's visible.

Yes.

And so now we're talking about what Trump almost refers to as the deep state.

Yes.

Holding itself together and holding these other parts.

So you're talking about something that's invisible in America,

dealing with something that's more or less invisible in New Zealand.

Professor Azizian says governments come and go, but these kinds of longstanding organizations tend to survive because once they're built, it's hard to dismantle them.

Japan is also considered a close ally of the Five Eyes partnership.

In 2020, the Japanese Defence Minister described Japan as being close enough to the other partners to be able to refer to the organisation as six eyes.

There's even a 14 eyes that adds in a number of European countries as well.

And Ruben Azizian says all of these additional frameworks are broad positives for New Zealand, giving us something we'd never have on our own.

You can hear him smiling about Queenstown, but I don't think he's joking.

And it is interesting.

Ruben Azizian has attended and hosted a lot of international conferences over the years.

He knows how goodwill is earned.

And he understands the subtleties of pushing back together against someone throwing their weight around.

In a world that is increasingly hard-nosed around security, there's no point in being too precious about the basic necessity of spying.

Ruben Azizian says in the current climate, there's a real danger to running a foreign policy that doesn't bring the public along with it.

He says whatever is decided won't satisfy everyone because we're a democracy, but we do need to feel like it has been openly discussed.