John Daniel

You're on the record as saying it's really important that New Zealand has healthy conversations around this sort of stuff, around threats.

And you've named Russia, China and North Korea as being in particular places, the kinds of places that we need to look out for.

The issue for me is that in order to have that conversation, we need to be able to have the information in the first place, right?

And we don't seem to be able to get levels of information around this stuff.

I mean, when we were doing the service, for example,

We went to The Service and asked for confirmation.

Ultimately, it appears that they lied to us.

Now, they're allowed to do that according to the bill, right?

Am I right about that?

Yeah, basically it seems they got hold of Gerald Hensley, who had oversight of the operation, and turned him.

We asked him about this story three times, and each time the answer was different.

So we turned off the tape and had a quick chat off the record and then turned the tape back on.

Six months later, having had plenty of time to communicate with the service, he told that story quite differently.

I mean, come on.

Don't get me wrong.

I like Gerald Hensley, who sadly passed away in 2024.

I enjoyed his company.

He was smart and funny, and he had an extraordinary career as a civil servant and diplomat, but he also loved the spy game.

And I believe he was, as more than one former SIS officer has said to me, also a dreadful, unconvincing liar, at least in this case.

And when I rang him to say that we were entertaining the possibility he might be lying, Gerald Hensley laughed and laughed and laughed.