John Daniel

And he said he thought that was very wise.

So we're back here again, trying to square the circle.

We need intelligence agencies to defend our democracy.

But they say they need to do that in secret.

And that can feel anti-democratic.

Kip Bennett is alert to the risks of keeping the public in the dark.

We know that New Zealand SIS has certainly historically had a close relationship with CIA.

Did you have any experience of working with the New Zealand SIS?

In late 2021, so under the administration of former US President Joe Biden, CIA announced it was establishing a mission centre to specifically target the People's Republic of China.

The then CIA director, William Burns, said its purpose was to, quote, further strengthen our collective work on the most important geopolitical threat we face in the 21st century, an increasingly adversarial Chinese government.

Yeah, although again, it is slightly frustrating how little we really know about this.

And it's worth mentioning that when we put together Redline, our podcast series trying to grapple with Chinese influence here in New Zealand, we approached the service on background and then went out to try to interview other people.

But they turned around and told the entire New Zealand intelligence community not to talk to us.

Well, listen, the guy from the New York Times seems to know more about our intelligence agencies than we do.

Here's Tim Weiner again.

This is another important point to understand.

While the Trump administration doesn't seem massively invested in its European partnerships where countering Russia is top of mind, the U.S.

is focusing on its rivalry with China.

But Susan Miller says intelligence sharing is now something of a political calculation.

The New Zealand intelligence community is going to have to make ongoing risk assessments around what kind of information to pass on to their American colleagues.