John Daniel

We should remember that even at the height of the row between the US and New Zealand over nuclear ships in the mid-1980s, intelligence was shared and cooperation continued.

By early 1986, Kit Bennett had finished his time with CIA but was still with the SIS.

He was based in Wellington.

While the Lermontov as a passenger ship wouldn't have been involved in any fighting, that information carried in the ship's safe would help Five Eyes intelligence agencies understand more about potential Soviet war plans.

Given that the Navy divers were going to have to dive to an unknown depth, they couldn't be submitted to the pressure of flying at high altitude.

The ship's commissar was a political appointee who oversaw crew discipline and security on all Soviet vessels.

If he'd had to abandon ship before he could get to the safe, the papers might still be down there.

But that wasn't what happened.

I guess the point here is that just because we can't see something doesn't mean it isn't important.

That's right.

The world of espionage, the wilderness of mirrors, it does invite a metaphor.

And we are now in a period of geopolitical turmoil, potentially even upheaval.

And as a nation, we need to ask ourselves some hard questions about who our friends really are and about how we work with them.

You love it when I do that.

I do.

I have heard Russian statecraft under Vladimir Putin described as an extension of KGB tradecraft.

But listen, it's also this situation with Trump.

I mean, we can't just ignore what's going on there, given what we know.

At the same time, I'm always sceptical when I hear there is no alternative.

It feels like there's an internal logic that's built up over decades inside our security institutions where being aligned with America is just a no-brainer because of those massive US resources.