John Eligon

is that he did not do enough to aggressively force a change, that you essentially had the system where a small percentage of white people held most of the wealth, where you had this large population of black people who were still in poverty and did not have much wealth at all. Right, even after apartheid. Exactly, exactly. And Mandela's whole thing was that he wanted to avoid a civil war.

is that he did not do enough to aggressively force a change, that you essentially had the system where a small percentage of white people held most of the wealth, where you had this large population of black people who were still in poverty and did not have much wealth at all. Right, even after apartheid. Exactly, exactly. And Mandela's whole thing was that he wanted to avoid a civil war.

He wanted to build a country... in which everyone could coexist alongside each other, right? So you had this transition where the idea was that you sort of allow everyone to have their own piece of society. Now, from the beginning, you had this great fear among white South Africans, right?

He wanted to build a country... in which everyone could coexist alongside each other, right? So you had this transition where the idea was that you sort of allow everyone to have their own piece of society. Now, from the beginning, you had this great fear among white South Africans, right?

That things would go horribly wrong, that they would be hunted in the streets and that they would have to, you know, migrate, you know, run out of the country and leave very quickly. And you did indeed have white South Africans who left the country. But there was no mass confiscation of white-owned land. There was no mass firing of white people. That never happened.

That things would go horribly wrong, that they would be hunted in the streets and that they would have to, you know, migrate, you know, run out of the country and leave very quickly. And you did indeed have white South Africans who left the country. But there was no mass confiscation of white-owned land. There was no mass firing of white people. That never happened.

So how do these Afrikaners, who are largely being spared major dislocation and change, how do they ever qualify as refugees in the eyes of the United States? They seem like the exact opposite so far in the story of refugees.

So how do these Afrikaners, who are largely being spared major dislocation and change, how do they ever qualify as refugees in the eyes of the United States? They seem like the exact opposite so far in the story of refugees.

Yeah, I think you have to look at what it's like to give up power, right? So you have, yes, Matt Mandela is framing it as, you know, building a nation together. But part of that is having to do practical things in order to ensure that a population, the black majority, had access to opportunities that they didn't have before.

Yeah, I think you have to look at what it's like to give up power, right? So you have, yes, Matt Mandela is framing it as, you know, building a nation together. But part of that is having to do practical things in order to ensure that a population, the black majority, had access to opportunities that they didn't have before.

So that meant looking at things like affirmative action to ensure that companies are hiring black people. And then there was, of course, the issue of land.

So that meant looking at things like affirmative action to ensure that companies are hiring black people. And then there was, of course, the issue of land.

And this is one in which the government tried to say to the white landowners who owned almost all of the land, hey, we'll pay you if you can give us some of that land so we can redistribute it to our Black population, to people who've worked on the land and lived on the land for years but never got a chance to own it. So it was called a willing buyer, willing seller program.

And this is one in which the government tried to say to the white landowners who owned almost all of the land, hey, we'll pay you if you can give us some of that land so we can redistribute it to our Black population, to people who've worked on the land and lived on the land for years but never got a chance to own it. So it was called a willing buyer, willing seller program.

And how much do the Afrikaners end up being willing to sell the land?

And how much do the Afrikaners end up being willing to sell the land?

There was a degree of selling, but not nearly as much as I think the government wanted. And so you take that over time, and what you see is that there's these flashpoints happening around land. And what are some of those flashpoints? In the mid to late 90s, shortly after the end of apartheid, you start to see this uptick in murders on farms.

There was a degree of selling, but not nearly as much as I think the government wanted. And so you take that over time, and what you see is that there's these flashpoints happening around land. And what are some of those flashpoints? In the mid to late 90s, shortly after the end of apartheid, you start to see this uptick in murders on farms.

And this is where we really see the foundations of this argument that Afrikaners are a persecuted people.

And this is where we really see the foundations of this argument that Afrikaners are a persecuted people.