John Gafford
Appearances
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
Today's episode of Escaping the Drift is brought to you by Mando. Are you somebody that stinks? I know, that sounds crazy. Or more to the point, you got a teenager that stinks. Because, wow, this Mando stuff, they sent me a package of it to try out. And if you've got that weird odor emanating out of your teen's room, try Mando All Over Deodorant.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
That's easy money.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
See, you know, that brings up an interesting point because they say that tough times breed strong men that build great times. And then great times build weak kids that build tough times. That's a fact. So obviously you, because you grew up single mom, you have a brother.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
No more hustle the cart wash 14 to buy what you want. Yeah, that instilled an internal sense of resilience with you. So how so you had your kids pre fall, right?
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
All six were on deck. Like they were they were living the high life.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
So how did you? How do you not raise worthless kids?
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
Yeah, yeah.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
Yeah. I think that.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
know obviously i didn't have the same situation you did but my parents got divorced when i was very young my father was an attorney in a very small southern town yeah rule number one if you're a woman in a small southern town or your husband is attorney there don't get divorced in that county it's just a bad move bad move my father was not very generous with my mother and the divorce so we still lived in like the ritziest neighborhood of my small town yeah in north florida
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
but we didn't have any money. So we're broke. And so going from that situation where, you know, you're constantly having to try to keep up with everybody else and there's no way to do it because you're behind. I think that much the same way it did for your kids. I think that burned my resiliency. And I think that's what made me that of my child. And I look back at my childhood very fondly.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
I don't, I'm,
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
Nobody is one wouldn't nobody, you know, you hear like David Goggins and nobody is feeling bad for me. Yeah, exactly. But that, I think that. That less, that, that feeling of less than, and that feeling of left wanting.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
Yeah. Right. Right.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
Is what created that burning desire in me to, to get successful. So I think, I think that's good. And it's so tough. when you are someone of success. I mean, it's the biggest fear we always have with our kids. And we're constantly trying to manufacture adversity for them.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
Yeah, and it is manufactured.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
As much as we can manufacture, I mean, sports and all that stuff and everything we can manufacture, we're trying desperately to do.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
And dude, my kids are great, but... At the same time, when they were eight years old, they had a, you know, they had an opinion on the airline we were taking.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
You're like, whoa, did Delta know? Why are we on Southwest? Did Delta not have any flights here?
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
Yeah. And they had that, you know, we had a private jet for a while and they had all that stuff. And And I think they're still very well grounded, because I think we do the best we can with them. So let's, because you were very successful early, before your trouble. So what was the, so you went into what field after, because you went to BYU, I'm assuming?
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
Chalker. Not a big surprise, based on the story so far.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
Or as the used car manager at Troncolli Nissan in Atlanta used to say, James Myrick, man, this car's been hit more times than Joe Louis. That's it. And now, Escaping the Drift, the show designed to get you from where you are to where you want to be. I'm John Gafford, and I have a knack for getting extraordinary achievers to drop their secrets to help you on a path to greatness.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
I'm a total imposter. Yeah, come on, figure it out.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
Yeah, you're like, okay, no problem.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
So stop drifting along, escape the drift, and it's time to start right now. Back again, back again for another episode of the show that, like it says in the opening, man, gets you from where you are to where you want to be. And today in the studio, I got a good one, guys. This is going to be super industry. Interesting.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
Or as the used car manager at Troncolli Nissan in Atlanta used to say, James Myrick, man, this car's been hit more times than Joe Louis.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
Not too often do you get to sit down and talk with somebody that has had such a meteoric rise and such a massive flame out. I mean, we all talk about the ups and downs of life, the ups and downs of business, all of these things, but this is a guy, he did a little bit of time, went inside a little bit because he was convicted and accused of $180 million Ponzi scheme.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
Yeah, because everything's half price, sure.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
And I kind of just want to hear the story of how all that stuff happens. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the program. This is James Catledge. James, how are you? Good, thanks for having me.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
Because this package they got is, man, I put it on the boy. And I got to tell you, he and his room had never smelled so good. I mean, literally you can use this stuff all over you. I'm talking about your feet, your butt crack, anywhere. Anywhere you got skin, this stuff will work as a deodorant. It was created by a doctor. It lasts for up to 72 hours.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
See, I want to take it one step further. My favorite technique in business anymore is I call it the Tony Soprano, which is this, which is if I want to build an auxiliary business on a bolt on to something that we do here, right? I'm going to say, okay, cool, you can do this. And then I'll go get the best person I can to plug in that already has this existing business.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
And then we flood them with customers. And then at the end of six, seven months, I asked a very simple question. How much of your business is our business? And when that number tips north of 50%, well, I'm going to be your partner now. Yeah. Right.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
See, full disclosure, I screwed up the first opening. That was word for word almost exactly the same thing. Very good, yeah, very good. See, I'm a pro here, James, I'm a pro. Yes, you are. That's how we do it. So let's back up, man. Obviously... You know, you've had quite the life.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
Now we're partners and that's how it's going to be because you know, once you get somebody so dependent on that source of business, they don't have a lot of choice. It's like, listen, I'll bring you more and we're going to do this, but we're partners now.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
The men that built America literally should be required education.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
Yeah, should be absolutely well. That's great. How do you go from that? Because you're making a million bucks at 27.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
Which have a massive markup.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
Yeah, I have. You've had quite the life.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
And yes, we're going to get to talk about some of the negative things. But I always, I want to try to find some positive here. So obviously we talked about the show. The idea is helping people get to the next level. And I believe now, obviously, you are a reformed gentleman. You're not somebody that is still looking to do anything that could be perceived as a negative in the world. No.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
Well, you became probably an expert through the copywriting process of finding pain points.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
Dude, I could tell you, because I own an insurance agency that specializes in Medicare supplements. Okay. And when you're a young guy, all you're doing every day is sitting with people that are 40 to 50 years older than you.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
And you don't reach the heights you reached because you reached a lot of those heights, perfectly fine, great business, doing wonderful things. And there's a lot of good knowledge in there that you can use to help others. And I love that that's what you're trying to do now. I love that.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
It's tough.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
It's tough. And they can't hear you. Yeah.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
i can't hear very well and she doesn't see very well and he goes i know what what's the secret to a long marriage he goes i just told you i don't see very well and she can't or i can't hear very well she can't see very well it's the perfect combination it's called chemistry yeah she can't see me anymore and i can't hear her anymore that's great that's it
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
So let's talk about, I always like to talk about nature versus nurture first, especially with high profile, very successful guests. So tell me about young James. How'd you grow up?
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
Come for a free lunch.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
How many agents under you?
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
Dude, my guy Sean Mikey came in here a couple weeks ago. He's in Miami. He's got a life insurance.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
And it is, it is.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
Yeah, but let me ask you a question in that situation. This is where Chris screwed up, right? Would you have done a deal with Chris where you got to be a GA and paid him a 25% kick?
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
Yeah, and you'd been happy to do it.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
Yeah, but my point is, dude, you can't cut the deal. You can't be greedy. You don't get to keep it. Here, over the years, we have amazing people that work at our company.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
And we've had over the years, some people that split off and want to go do their own thing. Yeah. I want to go up in their own company. I'm like, man, I wish you well, it's hard. Yes. It's really hard, but I wish you well, because that's the nature of the beast. And I think if you start trying to, you know, you know, I always ask people, I want to leave here.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
I go, I go, is it about money or is it about a dream? Yeah. And if they say it's about money, I go, then don't do it. You're stupid. Like, it's going to be really hard to make money doing this in this economy. If it's about a dream, if you've always had a dream to own your own shop, go do it.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
But you get your own agency eventually.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
Okay, so in my- This is mid-90s. That was the way of the business. Primerica, that was the way of the business.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
We can't. We're going to run out of time. We've got to skip ahead here. So you're making a truckload of money with insurance. Truckload of money. Truckload of money.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
We've got to get to it. How do you go from you're so incredibly expensive. You're killing it in insurance. You're crushing it in insurance. Yep. How did we wake up in a Ponzi scheme? I'll tell you.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
But how do you go from there?
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
Confession.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
If they want to do it.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
And my attorney- So what did the jury end up giving you?
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
What happened to your personal finances? Did they attack your personal finances?
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
When you... When all of this kind of came down, right? And obviously your whole life changes in an instant. It goes the other way. You know, a lot of the people that you, you know, you thought you were doing right by me. Dude, I have a similar, look, I don't have a $180 million problem. But I had a million dollar problem where I had taken money from my friends and family and people that I knew.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
The investment in something that wound up not being what it was. And I ended up having to pay it. I paid it all back because I didn't want to have that. Luckily, I mean, look, a million dollar hill is, $180 million is a lot different than a million. And since then, I have a friend of mine that's doing a very good business right now. He's got a very good business model. It's very smart.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
It's very sharp. And I was supposed to get in as an investor to it prior to them doing a Series B fundraise. Problem was the valuation that I was granted would have not been the valuation Series B was being offered at, and it screwed the deal up a little bit. And that's fine. I get it. Attorneys get in the way of things all the time.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
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Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
But he hit me up now, came back and was like, hey, and this is a good friend of mine. I believe in this business. This is a good business. But he said, hey, you know, could you could you put it out to your people and see if they was part of the Series B? And I just my response was, bro, I can't do that because I will never again raise money for anything that I don't have total control.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
I totally agree. I just want to wise position to take.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
Yeah, and I love him, and I love the business. I was going to invest in his fund, but I just won't do it.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
I think, too, if you look at that time, if you look at that time, because I was in real estate at that time, and you look at how fast everything was going. It turned upside down. Everything was going so fast. Yes, yes. you know, I mean, no income loans and nothing was getting vetted. People just in a deal and just, hey, I just made 50 grand in this house, so let's just buy that one.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
It's just, everything was going so fast. On every level, on every scale. You look at, you know, I, at the time, during that boom time, Right when I first got in real estate, I was selling, there was a company here in town called SunVest that was doing condo conversions all across the country.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
And we would just go to these real estate shows in like San Francisco and just stand in front of the room and then just literally present five projects and then sell 200 condos.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
And like 300 grand.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
And then two years later. Yeah. I'm sitting in Vegas selling those units that I was selling for $350,000. I'm selling them as foreclosures for $40,000, $30,000. It was crazy. So look, I'm not going to fault you for going as fast as all of us did at just a much bigger scale. Anybody that wants to throw stones at you at that time, I was living it then. We were all running.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
any construction project is never let your contractor get ahead of you financially, ever. That's it. Ever let them get ahead of you. I don't care if you're remodeling your bathroom or you're building a high-rise. You never let your contractors get ahead of you.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
That's exactly right. Ever.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
You're always building incrementally in arrears to the work that's getting done. Correct. The only thing you're ever fronting is material. Exactly. That's it. So let me ask you one more question before we go, just because I think this is something that a lot of people, like this whole story, right?
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
The thing that I think probably we didn't talk about that I find that I want to understand is the reputational collateral, the damage that was taken. Great question. Right? Like, how do you deal Yeah. With somebody at your heart that you feel like you're doing the right thing. You're just trying to do the right thing. Yes. Yes. You're crushing. Yes.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
You're doing this, but everybody around you is making money. You feel like you're doing the right thing. And then all of a sudden I got to believe, especially in the circles that you're, you're in with that tight net church community.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
You are a person.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
I think we'll leave it at that.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
No, thanks for coming in, James. Well, listen, man, if you listen to that, I think there's definitely... I think that last question is the takeaway, man. We talked about so much stuff today, but listen... Life is going to give you ups and downs, and sometimes those are self-created, sometimes they're not.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
But at the end of the day, you need to focus more on who you believe you are than who other people think you are. We'll see you next week. What's up, everybody? Thanks for joining us for another episode of Escaping the Drift. Hope you got a bunch out of it, or at least as much as I did out of it. Anyway, if you want to learn more about the show, you can always go over to escapingthedrift.com.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
So he's not really in a position to. She's thinking, I don't have to run faster than the break in. I just got to run faster than my eight year old son.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
You can join our mailing list. But do me a favor, if you wouldn't mind, throw up that five-star review, give us a share, do something, man. We're here for you. Hopefully, you'll be here for us. But anyway, in the meantime, we will see you at the next episode.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
Well, I think it's very interesting that even at a small age, you realized that Sometimes just changing your physiology, and you, your physical world, just by the act of holding those knives, right? Just change the whole process. And I think if you're somebody out there that's struggling with fear of anything, I think you just got to find something
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
You've got to find that knife to put under the hand of the garbage can.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
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Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
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Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
Chris Leake is a friend of mine and he had a massive home services business that got sold out to private equity. And he's a Mormon guy. He's from Utah. And I never put it together. He's like, oh yeah, dude, all I do is recruit former Mormon missionaries. Right when they come off the missionary. And I'm like, Yes. Oh, my gosh. I'm like, they're banging on doors trying to sell Jesus. To strangers.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
To strangers. They got no problem asking about solar. No problem asking about solar.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
Yeah, and he told me, he goes, literally, he goes, every home services building business across the country, they recruit from Utah.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
Right from Utah.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
I can't believe I never put that together.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
Yeah, that's a conversion. That's it. Literally a conversion. Literally a conversion.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
Anything that, look, whatever it may be that teaches you that level of responsibility and dedication at a young age, be it the military, be it that, be it anything. Yeah. I'm going to get behind. That's good stuff. As a kid, let's go backwards a little bit, as a kid, because you said you didn't get paid for that. What was the first hustle you remember you did for money?
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
The Unseen Strength in Setbacks with James Catledge
What was the first way you got money?