John Kiriakou

But we killed people with that technique.

The Justice Department never said we could kill people.

How many people died with that?

At least two with that technique.

Just from hypothermia?

From hypothermia.

No.

There was later, but in those early days, no.

Later, we always had a doctor on scene.

Like, for example, with Abu Zubaydah, his heart actually stopped during a waterboarding session, and the doctor revived him just so he could be tortured more.

It's like, you know, didn't the Germans do that?

Come on now.

Now we're doing it?

That's a good question.

The short answer is yes.

Not in the very beginning, but they were working with things like truth serum and different drugs like relaxation drugs, gabapentin, you know, stuff like that to sort of get you to open up.

But remember, too, that the agency got in such trouble in 75 and 76 before the Church Committee and the Pike Committee about MKUltra that as soon as Senator Church said, don't destroy the documents, the director went right back to headquarters and ordered them to destroy everything.

And so only about 20% of the MKUltra documents still exist.

So we don't really know exactly...

Exactly what it was that was learned in that program, like what worked and what didn't work.