John Lisle

And from that, I learned about, you know, Sidney Gottlieb, but also mostly my initial interest was this man named Stanley Lovell, who was

was essentially the Sidney Gottlieb of the OSS.

So prior to the CIA, the US had the OSS, the Office of Strategic Services during World War II.

And that was the US kind of intelligence agency.

And Stanley Lovell was in charge of a branch within the OSS called the Research and Development Branch.

And that was the branch that was composed of a group of scientists whose job was to basically invent the deadly weapons, create ingenious disguises, forge documents for secret agents that are sent abroad.

So my first-

Oh, yeah.

My first book, The Drudgery Tricks Department, it's about Stanley Lovell and that group.

And one of the things they do are drug experiments and truth drug experiments, trying to find out whether it's possible to give someone, you know, a captured enemy agent some kind of drug to make them tell the truth during an interrogation.

And it turns out when I was researching that book, I came across a series of depositions of which Sidney Gottlieb is one of the deponents who would later lead MKUltra.

And in these depositions, he was talking about how when he was –

assigned to be in charge of MKUltra, he didn't really know where to begin.

He didn't know anything about mind control.

So one of the things that he did, he went into the old OSS files and was starting to look at the drug experiments that Stanley Lovell was doing.

And so I thought, that's the connection between Stanley Lovell, my first book, and now this one.

So that naturally led me into becoming interested in MKUltra.

So a lot of the things that Sidney Gottlieb was up to with MKUltra

His blueprint was basically Stanley Lovell.

Yeah, yeah.