John Lisle

And he was about to die.

And he didn't really want to go through the remaining months or whatever he had left in agony.

And so he got his son to stockpile a bunch of pills and feed them to him when he basically became unable to move for himself.

And so that happened to Jolly West.

Then the son did that to Jolly West's wife, his own mother.

Later, when I don't know exactly if she had a medical issue or something, but he helped her commit assisted suicide.

The son wrote a book about it and then he later committed suicide as well.

One of the...

One of the parts of the book that I really enjoyed is the writing style is kind of like a gonzo journal.

He's part of the story.

You're following him on the journey to discover this stuff.

For me, that was the exciting part of the ride.

It's like, oh, it's not just telling you the story.

It's like we're figuring out how a historian or a journalist actually works.

He's telling you, now I've got this interview and I'm going to go do this and I'm going to go find these documents.

I didn't write this book in that style because I just wanted to stick to a description of MKUltra.

But there is something tempting about...

One of the exciting things about history is doing the history, and no one really sees that process.

You know how I was describing going down the rabbit hole to find the origin of that quote?

There are a million stories like that about how it's so crazy.