Jonathan Beale

And Mark Rutter was very careful when he was the prime minister of the Netherlands to give credit to Donald Trump for forcing countries to spend more on defense of that 2018 NATO summit. And that has played dividends in terms of his personal relationship with Donald Trump. He's already gone as NATO's secretary general to have a private meeting with Donald Trump at Mar-a-Lago.

And Mark Rutter was very careful when he was the prime minister of the Netherlands to give credit to Donald Trump for forcing countries to spend more on defense of that 2018 NATO summit. And that has played dividends in terms of his personal relationship with Donald Trump. He's already gone as NATO's secretary general to have a private meeting with Donald Trump at Mar-a-Lago.

So, you know, there is some investment in their personal relationships.

So, you know, there is some investment in their personal relationships.

Well, I think you're absolutely right to point out that Mark Ritter is playing essentially to Donald Trump's ego and he has given him the credit for forcing European countries to increase defence spending when the reality probably is that that European countries suddenly increased defence spending, most of them, after Russia's full-scale invasion.

Well, I think you're absolutely right to point out that Mark Ritter is playing essentially to Donald Trump's ego and he has given him the credit for forcing European countries to increase defence spending when the reality probably is that that European countries suddenly increased defence spending, most of them, after Russia's full-scale invasion.

So he's essentially giving credit where you could debate credit is not due. I think it is important, though, that what Mark Rutter is doing is also what, to some extent, President Zelensky is doing.

So he's essentially giving credit where you could debate credit is not due. I think it is important, though, that what Mark Rutter is doing is also what, to some extent, President Zelensky is doing.

Ukraine here knows that things could change dramatically under a Donald Trump presidency, that they could have some of their military aid withdrawn, if not all of it, that there could be peace negotiations or attempts at peace negotiations. And they want to see Donald Trump as a winner, too. And part of their calculus is the same as Mark Ritter's calculus. that you appeal to Donald Trump's ego.

Ukraine here knows that things could change dramatically under a Donald Trump presidency, that they could have some of their military aid withdrawn, if not all of it, that there could be peace negotiations or attempts at peace negotiations. And they want to see Donald Trump as a winner, too. And part of their calculus is the same as Mark Ritter's calculus. that you appeal to Donald Trump's ego.

You tell him that it is his strength that can resolve this crisis and it is making Ukraine strong and keeping it strong that will help resolve this crisis. You want to tell him that he is in a position of power where he can decide the future. And if he wants to win, really win, then that means taking on Vladimir Putin and not allowing him to win this war.

You tell him that it is his strength that can resolve this crisis and it is making Ukraine strong and keeping it strong that will help resolve this crisis. You want to tell him that he is in a position of power where he can decide the future. And if he wants to win, really win, then that means taking on Vladimir Putin and not allowing him to win this war.

Well, he's not alone in talking about the dangers of this conflict widening to other European countries. We've heard similar from Boris Pistorius, the German defence minister.

Well, he's not alone in talking about the dangers of this conflict widening to other European countries. We've heard similar from Boris Pistorius, the German defence minister.

We've heard senior British military commanders, senior NATO commanders as well, warning that Russia does not see the end of its goals in defeating Ukraine, which it clearly wants to do and which is swallowing up all its resources permanently. and finances and time at the moment. But that will not be the end of it, is the warning.

We've heard senior British military commanders, senior NATO commanders as well, warning that Russia does not see the end of its goals in defeating Ukraine, which it clearly wants to do and which is swallowing up all its resources permanently. and finances and time at the moment. But that will not be the end of it, is the warning.

So I don't think you should see what Mark Rutter is saying in isolation, because many other people are saying it. And I think that they're saying it, and it's particularly senior military officers saying it, because they know that most European countries are ill-prepared for a conflict, that they have through the peace dividend after the end of the Cold War, reduced the size of their militaries.

So I don't think you should see what Mark Rutter is saying in isolation, because many other people are saying it. And I think that they're saying it, and it's particularly senior military officers saying it, because they know that most European countries are ill-prepared for a conflict, that they have through the peace dividend after the end of the Cold War, reduced the size of their militaries.

They have reduced the output of their weapons factories. So I don't think we should think of what Margaret is saying is scaremongering, because he's not alone in saying this. But as you say, there is a disconnect, which he wants to highlight between what European populations feel and what governments are doing.

They have reduced the output of their weapons factories. So I don't think we should think of what Margaret is saying is scaremongering, because he's not alone in saying this. But as you say, there is a disconnect, which he wants to highlight between what European populations feel and what governments are doing.