Jonathan Birch

What I propose in the book is that democratic, inclusive deliberation and discussion is the way forward here. And I'm quite an advocate of citizens assemblies as the kind of model that we can use for this whole set of issues at the edge of sentience, where they're issues that, well, they call for judgments of proportionality.

What I propose in the book is that democratic, inclusive deliberation and discussion is the way forward here. And I'm quite an advocate of citizens assemblies as the kind of model that we can use for this whole set of issues at the edge of sentience, where they're issues that, well, they call for judgments of proportionality.

There will naturally be disagreements in a pluralistic democratic society about what is proportionate to these risks. And the way we can resolve those value conflicts is democratically through citizens' assemblies.

There will naturally be disagreements in a pluralistic democratic society about what is proportionate to these risks. And the way we can resolve those value conflicts is democratically through citizens' assemblies.

We do, yeah, not just to crabs, yes. And often to many animals that are widely regarded as sentient, so pigs, chickens, for example, it's quite clear that widespread recognition of a particular species as sentient does not lead people immediately to behavioural change and does lead to lots of gratuitous suffering still being caused. So my focus in this book is on the edge cases, as it were.

We do, yeah, not just to crabs, yes. And often to many animals that are widely regarded as sentient, so pigs, chickens, for example, it's quite clear that widespread recognition of a particular species as sentient does not lead people immediately to behavioural change and does lead to lots of gratuitous suffering still being caused. So my focus in this book is on the edge cases, as it were.

But, you know, even in those core cases, we do need discussion about, well, how are we going to change the way we treat these animals?

But, you know, even in those core cases, we do need discussion about, well, how are we going to change the way we treat these animals?

Well, particularly the UK's Animal Welfare Sentience Act of 2022, my team ended up having some influence on because we were commissioned to produce a report of the evidence of sentience in cephalopod mollusks and decapod crustaceans, so octopuses, crabs, lobsters, shrimps. And basically the government had...

Well, particularly the UK's Animal Welfare Sentience Act of 2022, my team ended up having some influence on because we were commissioned to produce a report of the evidence of sentience in cephalopod mollusks and decapod crustaceans, so octopuses, crabs, lobsters, shrimps. And basically the government had...

produced this bill that creates a duty on policymakers to consider the animal welfare impacts of their actions, which I think is a pretty good idea. And in drafting it, they needed to say something about the scope of the bill, because you've got to say which animals. Do you have an obligation to consider plankton, microscopic animals? Is it just pets or what?

produced this bill that creates a duty on policymakers to consider the animal welfare impacts of their actions, which I think is a pretty good idea. And in drafting it, they needed to say something about the scope of the bill, because you've got to say which animals. Do you have an obligation to consider plankton, microscopic animals? Is it just pets or what?

And they came up with a draft that included all vertebrates and which on the plus side included fishes, which it should, but on the negative side excluded all invertebrates, which led to some criticism from animal welfare groups.

And they came up with a draft that included all vertebrates and which on the plus side included fishes, which it should, but on the negative side excluded all invertebrates, which led to some criticism from animal welfare groups.

So the government ended up commissioning a team led by me to produce a review of the evidence concerning those two particular groups of invertebrates, and we recommended that they amend the bill to extend the duty to them. And they did. So we got something, you know, we got our central recommendation implemented.

So the government ended up commissioning a team led by me to produce a review of the evidence concerning those two particular groups of invertebrates, and we recommended that they amend the bill to extend the duty to them. And they did. So we got something, you know, we got our central recommendation implemented.

Now we put a lot of other recommendations in the report as well, which have not been implemented. And so we're still pushing for action on a lot of these issues, but that basic point that the sentience of octopuses, squid, cuttlefish, crabs, lobsters was recognized in UK law. That's something.

Now we put a lot of other recommendations in the report as well, which have not been implemented. And so we're still pushing for action on a lot of these issues, but that basic point that the sentience of octopuses, squid, cuttlefish, crabs, lobsters was recognized in UK law. That's something.

I think we're mammal chauvinists a lot of the time. I mean, human chauvinists the most, then mammals. And then sometimes you can get people to take fishes seriously and they still will neglect the interests of invertebrates. So I think really we need to be yet more inclusive.

I think we're mammal chauvinists a lot of the time. I mean, human chauvinists the most, then mammals. And then sometimes you can get people to take fishes seriously and they still will neglect the interests of invertebrates. So I think really we need to be yet more inclusive.