Jonathan Birch

you know, things like that, where, yeah, there's a very wide range of reasonable views one might have where you can converge on the need to take precautions.

you know, things like that, where, yeah, there's a very wide range of reasonable views one might have where you can converge on the need to take precautions.

Well, no, or any dicapod crustacean, I think. We did a big review in 2021 that influenced the law in the UK community, on these issues. And yeah, as part of that review, we reviewed evidence that it takes two to three minutes a lot of the time for the crab or lobster to die. And in that time, there's this storm of nervous system activity as there would be in your pet cat or in any other animal.

Well, no, or any dicapod crustacean, I think. We did a big review in 2021 that influenced the law in the UK community, on these issues. And yeah, as part of that review, we reviewed evidence that it takes two to three minutes a lot of the time for the crab or lobster to die. And in that time, there's this storm of nervous system activity as there would be in your pet cat or in any other animal.

So it's a prolonged extreme slaughter method. It seems like everyone should be able to see the risk there and see the problem and see the need for common sense precautions. You might not think the response is to ban eating crabs and lobsters. You might think that the right response is to mandate stunning of some kind.

So it's a prolonged extreme slaughter method. It seems like everyone should be able to see the risk there and see the problem and see the need for common sense precautions. You might not think the response is to ban eating crabs and lobsters. You might think that the right response is to mandate stunning of some kind.

And those debates about proportionality, I think are absolutely central right across the family of cases at the edge of sentience. But everyone should be able to agree on the need to do something.

And those debates about proportionality, I think are absolutely central right across the family of cases at the edge of sentience. But everyone should be able to agree on the need to do something.

Yes, well, and I think that's a very widespread view. And what I'm looking for in the book are points of consensus. So realistic range of possibilities in the scientific domain, but also points of overlapping consensus in the ethical domain as well. And I think that duty to avoid causing gratuitous suffering, either intentionally or through recklessness or negligence,

Yes, well, and I think that's a very widespread view. And what I'm looking for in the book are points of consensus. So realistic range of possibilities in the scientific domain, but also points of overlapping consensus in the ethical domain as well. And I think that duty to avoid causing gratuitous suffering, either intentionally or through recklessness or negligence,

through just not caring, I think people from any reasonable ethical starting point can agree on that and then use that to guide the way we think about these cases where we have sentience candidates.

through just not caring, I think people from any reasonable ethical starting point can agree on that and then use that to guide the way we think about these cases where we have sentience candidates.

I think that principle is so weak in a way, it's so thin, the duty to avoid causing gratuitous suffering Where gratuitous implies the absence of any adequate reason for what you're doing. I think because it is so deliberately thin, it then can command genuine consensus. And then, of course, a lot of people want to go beyond that and say our duties are much stronger.

I think that principle is so weak in a way, it's so thin, the duty to avoid causing gratuitous suffering Where gratuitous implies the absence of any adequate reason for what you're doing. I think because it is so deliberately thin, it then can command genuine consensus. And then, of course, a lot of people want to go beyond that and say our duties are much stronger.

And I guess I do think this in my own life, but... For the purpose of formulating public policy, it's good to have these quite thin principles. And I think that's one of them. Yeah, okay, good.

And I guess I do think this in my own life, but... For the purpose of formulating public policy, it's good to have these quite thin principles. And I think that's one of them. Yeah, okay, good.

Yeah. I hope that we don't have to. What I'm skeptical of is the idea of there being a sort of technocratic solution to this, where if we just find the right currency... And I suppose you have a policy on the table where some people working in the shellfish industry will be disadvantaged. Maybe their costs will go up because you're going to force them to stun the animals before killing them.

Yeah. I hope that we don't have to. What I'm skeptical of is the idea of there being a sort of technocratic solution to this, where if we just find the right currency... And I suppose you have a policy on the table where some people working in the shellfish industry will be disadvantaged. Maybe their costs will go up because you're going to force them to stun the animals before killing them.

And the stunners cost money. And then the question is, well, how do you weigh the suffering of the... ah, you know, my livelihood has been made more difficult versus the crab spending the two minutes in the boiling water. And I think there's no technocratic common currency that will give us one size fits all answers to this kind of thing.

And the stunners cost money. And then the question is, well, how do you weigh the suffering of the... ah, you know, my livelihood has been made more difficult versus the crab spending the two minutes in the boiling water. And I think there's no technocratic common currency that will give us one size fits all answers to this kind of thing.