Jonathan Birch

So I do think there's something inherently more impressive about experiments that do not simply provide two immediate stimuli and say, trade these off, but rather in some way rely on the animal's capacity for mental representation. And it's a similar story with the evidence from bees as well. That's what researchers have been trying to do. Sorry, tell us about the evidence from bees.

So I do think there's something inherently more impressive about experiments that do not simply provide two immediate stimuli and say, trade these off, but rather in some way rely on the animal's capacity for mental representation. And it's a similar story with the evidence from bees as well. That's what researchers have been trying to do. Sorry, tell us about the evidence from bees.

I was just thinking of Matilda Gibbon's experiments where they're inspired by Elwood's crab experiments. But bees don't have the shells that hermit crabs have. So you've got to test for the same thing in a different way. And so she came up with this setup where

I was just thinking of Matilda Gibbon's experiments where they're inspired by Elwood's crab experiments. But bees don't have the shells that hermit crabs have. So you've got to test for the same thing in a different way. And so she came up with this setup where

They have a choice of feeders they can land on, and different concentrations of sugar solution are available at different feeders, and different temperatures of heat pad are there that they have to stand on to access the feeder. And so the question now is about a different kind of trade-off. Will they trade off when choosing which feeder to go to? How...

They have a choice of feeders they can land on, and different concentrations of sugar solution are available at different feeders, and different temperatures of heat pad are there that they have to stand on to access the feeder. And so the question now is about a different kind of trade-off. Will they trade off when choosing which feeder to go to? How...

how high was the heat they had to withstand, and how sweet were the rewards that they can access. And again, a crucial part of it for Tilda was this thought that you want to look at their decisions when they're anticipating what they're going to experience at these feeders based on their memories.

how high was the heat they had to withstand, and how sweet were the rewards that they can access. And again, a crucial part of it for Tilda was this thought that you want to look at their decisions when they're anticipating what they're going to experience at these feeders based on their memories.

Yeah, because when they're doing it, there is this possibility that, well, there is some integration of some kind going on, but it's just two immediate stimuli pushing against each other. But when they're making that choice in an anticipatory fashion, it's got to be some kind of representation of the risks and opportunities.

Yeah, because when they're doing it, there is this possibility that, well, there is some integration of some kind going on, but it's just two immediate stimuli pushing against each other. But when they're making that choice in an anticipatory fashion, it's got to be some kind of representation of the risks and opportunities.

So, yes, not every critic is convinced by this kind of evidence, of course. But in a way, you're going after that critic who says these animals are just reflex machines. And because they're just reflex machines, there's no credible theory of sentience of any kind on which they're going to meet the conditions. And it's showing that that is not the case.

So, yes, not every critic is convinced by this kind of evidence, of course. But in a way, you're going after that critic who says these animals are just reflex machines. And because they're just reflex machines, there's no credible theory of sentience of any kind on which they're going to meet the conditions. And it's showing that that is not the case.

I think that's right, that they're prospectively modeling the environment and the rewards and the risks that it offers. And they have some way of weighing up those risks and rewards in a common currency. And that ties in with this quite longstanding idea that, well, that's kind of what sentience does for us.

I think that's right, that they're prospectively modeling the environment and the rewards and the risks that it offers. And they have some way of weighing up those risks and rewards in a common currency. And that ties in with this quite longstanding idea that, well, that's kind of what sentience does for us.

That pain and pleasure, valence, states, they're the currency through which we make decisions and represent the risks and opportunities of our environment.

That pain and pleasure, valence, states, they're the currency through which we make decisions and represent the risks and opportunities of our environment.

I mean, I think that's something that goes beyond sentience, much the same way that the inner monologue, et cetera, goes beyond sentience. It's something some sentient beings can do, but probably not all. I think that's going to be the case for counterfactual reasoning. Of course, it depends a bit on what we mean by that.

I mean, I think that's something that goes beyond sentience, much the same way that the inner monologue, et cetera, goes beyond sentience. It's something some sentient beings can do, but probably not all. I think that's going to be the case for counterfactual reasoning. Of course, it depends a bit on what we mean by that.

I think if you think of rats in a maze and the vicarious trial and error behavior that was observed by Tolman many, many decades ago and has been intensively studied, where they seem to pause at the junction in the maze and look both ways as if simulating what reward lies down each path

I think if you think of rats in a maze and the vicarious trial and error behavior that was observed by Tolman many, many decades ago and has been intensively studied, where they seem to pause at the junction in the maze and look both ways as if simulating what reward lies down each path