Jonathan Birch

And then there's more recent studies that suggest that the hippocampus genuinely is doing that, that simulating, uh, you know, this is, it's not really counterfactual reasoning, or at least that would be a pretty tendentious description of it, but it's perspective simulation. Um, and I suspect that that capacity for perspective simulation is, is quite widespread among animals.

And then there's more recent studies that suggest that the hippocampus genuinely is doing that, that simulating, uh, you know, this is, it's not really counterfactual reasoning, or at least that would be a pretty tendentious description of it, but it's perspective simulation. Um, and I suspect that that capacity for perspective simulation is, is quite widespread among animals.

It's a hypothetical, right? It's possible futures that could be actual.

It's a hypothetical, right? It's possible futures that could be actual.

So there's no sense of, well, that didn't happen, but what if it had happened? So that bit's not there.

So there's no sense of, well, that didn't happen, but what if it had happened? So that bit's not there.

Well, I think Andrew Barron and Colin Klein have this paper about insects and the origin of consciousness. And another one called Insects Have the Capacity for Subjective Experience. And their case is based on the idea that what they have is this integrative model of the agent in space where they model the environment around them. That may be prospection on a very short timescale, I suppose.

Well, I think Andrew Barron and Colin Klein have this paper about insects and the origin of consciousness. And another one called Insects Have the Capacity for Subjective Experience. And their case is based on the idea that what they have is this integrative model of the agent in space where they model the environment around them. That may be prospection on a very short timescale, I suppose.

And then it's largely an open question about prospection on longer timescales. Some of the most interesting evidence there is probably the Porsche spider evidence, where these are jumping spiders that hunt other spiders. And they're famed for this detour behavior. where you put them on a platform where they can see prey item in the distance and they can see two paths to the prey item.

And then it's largely an open question about prospection on longer timescales. Some of the most interesting evidence there is probably the Porsche spider evidence, where these are jumping spiders that hunt other spiders. And they're famed for this detour behavior. where you put them on a platform where they can see prey item in the distance and they can see two paths to the prey item.

One of them has a break in it. If they take that path, they will fall through it and they go from side to side. They seem to be inspecting the two paths. Then they climb back down off the platform. So the paths are out of sight and they nearly always choose the unbroken path. Um, leading to a debate about how on earth they do something like that.

One of them has a break in it. If they take that path, they will fall through it and they go from side to side. They seem to be inspecting the two paths. Then they climb back down off the platform. So the paths are out of sight and they nearly always choose the unbroken path. Um, leading to a debate about how on earth they do something like that.

And of course, one possible explanation involves perspective simulation, where they are in the brain modeling what will happen if they take each path.

And of course, one possible explanation involves perspective simulation, where they are in the brain modeling what will happen if they take each path.

Yes, well, and I think in the Porsche Spider case, what's lacking is the neural evidence that we have in the rats. So say if you have both, if you have the behavior and you have neural recording practically showing the simulation happening in real time, then that's probably as strong evidence as you're ever going to get. And we don't have that for the Portia spiders, but it's very suggestive.

Yes, well, and I think in the Porsche Spider case, what's lacking is the neural evidence that we have in the rats. So say if you have both, if you have the behavior and you have neural recording practically showing the simulation happening in real time, then that's probably as strong evidence as you're ever going to get. And we don't have that for the Portia spiders, but it's very suggestive.

Right. Yeah, that's part of what's so impressive. In a brain of, I think, about 60,000 neurons, so really, really small, less than 10% of the size of the bee brain by neuron count, They're doing something that dogs clearly fail to do.

Right. Yeah, that's part of what's so impressive. In a brain of, I think, about 60,000 neurons, so really, really small, less than 10% of the size of the bee brain by neuron count, They're doing something that dogs clearly fail to do.

I think we can't really talk with confidence about this because it depends very much on your theory of the brain mechanisms involved.

I think we can't really talk with confidence about this because it depends very much on your theory of the brain mechanisms involved.