Jonathan Haidt

Absolutely, absolutely.

Absolutely, absolutely.

Yeah, that's right. There's a great thinker who I know has talked about in Silicon Valley, Rene Girard, Frenchman who taught at Stanford. I read some of the chapters of one of his books and I read some summaries of his work and I think it's brilliant. And the key thing is this, we kind of naively assume that young people copy what they see other people doing. But that's not true.

Yeah, that's right. There's a great thinker who I know has talked about in Silicon Valley, Rene Girard, Frenchman who taught at Stanford. I read some of the chapters of one of his books and I read some summaries of his work and I think it's brilliant. And the key thing is this, we kind of naively assume that young people copy what they see other people doing. But that's not true.

If my kid sees me doing something, they're not going to copy me. I mean, when they're two, they do, but not older. If they see some other kid doing something, they're not necessarily going to copy that just because the kid is doing it. Girard's point is what we copy is what they want. So if someone, we don't know what to want. I mean, yes, for hot, we want cool, but...

If my kid sees me doing something, they're not going to copy me. I mean, when they're two, they do, but not older. If they see some other kid doing something, they're not necessarily going to copy that just because the kid is doing it. Girard's point is what we copy is what they want. So if someone, we don't know what to want. I mean, yes, for hot, we want cool, but...

Beyond that, we don't know what we want. And so we're incredibly attuned to what everyone else in our reference group is wanting. And that's always been the case. And of course, advertisers in the 19th century began to pick up on that. How do you make it seem like everybody wants this product?

Beyond that, we don't know what we want. And so we're incredibly attuned to what everyone else in our reference group is wanting. And that's always been the case. And of course, advertisers in the 19th century began to pick up on that. How do you make it seem like everybody wants this product?

So advertising has always been about appealing, about trying to hack, trying to really activate this Rene Girard mechanism that we're copying each other's wants. And that's where I think influencer culture represents the, what, not reductive, like take it to its extreme conclusion.

So advertising has always been about appealing, about trying to hack, trying to really activate this Rene Girard mechanism that we're copying each other's wants. And that's where I think influencer culture represents the, what, not reductive, like take it to its extreme conclusion.

Where I speak to young people, they come to ask me for advice on how to be successful, and some of them have not even thought about what they can do that would be of worth to anyone. All they're focused on is how to get more followers. So, you know, everybody wants likes and followers. So I want likes and followers. Well, you know, in the world before this, you had to do something to get prestige.

Where I speak to young people, they come to ask me for advice on how to be successful, and some of them have not even thought about what they can do that would be of worth to anyone. All they're focused on is how to get more followers. So, you know, everybody wants likes and followers. So I want likes and followers. Well, you know, in the world before this, you had to do something to get prestige.

That's right. And that's a trap. That's a trap that leads to unhappiness. That's right.

That's right. And that's a trap. That's a trap that leads to unhappiness. That's right.

Okay, so let me just set this up by sort of jumping ahead to the notion of collective action problems and the four norms that I suggest in the book to break out of collective action problems. So the clearest collective action problem is any kid who doesn't get a phone is left out. And so the kid says, mom, I'm the only one without a phone. I'm in fifth grade. Everyone else has a phone.

Okay, so let me just set this up by sort of jumping ahead to the notion of collective action problems and the four norms that I suggest in the book to break out of collective action problems. So the clearest collective action problem is any kid who doesn't get a phone is left out. And so the kid says, mom, I'm the only one without a phone. I'm in fifth grade. Everyone else has a phone.

They're making fun of me. And this hurts us as parents. So we say, okay, I'll give you, I have an old phone here. We'll reactivate it for you. And so you can end up in a situation where everyone has a bad outcome, which is you get to the point where now, in third and fourth grade, kids are all getting phones, and you sort of get there because everyone else is doing it.

They're making fun of me. And this hurts us as parents. So we say, okay, I'll give you, I have an old phone here. We'll reactivate it for you. And so you can end up in a situation where everyone has a bad outcome, which is you get to the point where now, in third and fourth grade, kids are all getting phones, and you sort of get there because everyone else is doing it.

And Gen Z feels trapped on social media. I talk to my students, why are you spending so much time on TikTok and Instagram and five other platforms every day? You have no time to do anything of any use to anyone. And they say, well, I have to because I need to know what people are talking about. I don't want to be left out. So this whole thing is a set of collective action traps.

And Gen Z feels trapped on social media. I talk to my students, why are you spending so much time on TikTok and Instagram and five other platforms every day? You have no time to do anything of any use to anyone. And they say, well, I have to because I need to know what people are talking about. I don't want to be left out. So this whole thing is a set of collective action traps.