Jonathan Haidt

And as she says, playgrounds should be as safe as necessary, not as safe as possible. Whereas in America, in part because we have so many lawyers, everyone's afraid of being sued. And so playground guidelines will say things like, there must not be exposed roots of a tree near the playground because the kids might trip. Which of course teaches them to expect no obstacles.

And as she says, playgrounds should be as safe as necessary, not as safe as possible. Whereas in America, in part because we have so many lawyers, everyone's afraid of being sued. And so playground guidelines will say things like, there must not be exposed roots of a tree near the playground because the kids might trip. Which of course teaches them to expect no obstacles.

Everything should be clear and easy and safe. And then you go out into the world and it's full of obstacles. And so that's part of the reason we think why the kids began to freak out. Those who were born in 1995, they weren't prepared for life.

Everything should be clear and easy and safe. And then you go out into the world and it's full of obstacles. And so that's part of the reason we think why the kids began to freak out. Those who were born in 1995, they weren't prepared for life.

That's right. And this is the dilemma that we're in as parents, because we love our children. We see something bad happening to them. We see kids picking on them or excluding them. We want to swoop in. And it used to be when we were out away from our home, they couldn't swoop in because they weren't there. But now either they're there or we're all connected by text or they're tracking us.

That's right. And this is the dilemma that we're in as parents, because we love our children. We see something bad happening to them. We see kids picking on them or excluding them. We want to swoop in. And it used to be when we were out away from our home, they couldn't swoop in because they weren't there. But now either they're there or we're all connected by text or they're tracking us.

And so a question I would ask is for everybody to think about. Okay, you've got three young kids. What is the ideal number of times that you want each of your children to be excluded socially by the time they reach 18? Is it zero? Do you hope that they're never excluded from anything and suffer the pain of exclusion? Or would you like it to happen, you know, several times a month?

And so a question I would ask is for everybody to think about. Okay, you've got three young kids. What is the ideal number of times that you want each of your children to be excluded socially by the time they reach 18? Is it zero? Do you hope that they're never excluded from anything and suffer the pain of exclusion? Or would you like it to happen, you know, several times a month?

That's right. So the principle of inoculation is really powerful here. We all understand the immune system now, especially since COVID, that if you're exposed to a little bit of something, your body then develops antibodies to it. It learns how to defend against it. And so this is called anti-fragility. There's a couple of words for it, anti-fragility.

That's right. So the principle of inoculation is really powerful here. We all understand the immune system now, especially since COVID, that if you're exposed to a little bit of something, your body then develops antibodies to it. It learns how to defend against it. And so this is called anti-fragility. There's a couple of words for it, anti-fragility.

If we think our kids are fragile, then we're going to protect them. We don't want them excluded. It'll hurt. They might traumatize them. But if we realize that they're the opposite of fragile, that they actually need to fall down, they need to be excluded sometimes to feel the pain of exclusion.

If we think our kids are fragile, then we're going to protect them. We don't want them excluded. It'll hurt. They might traumatize them. But if we realize that they're the opposite of fragile, that they actually need to fall down, they need to be excluded sometimes to feel the pain of exclusion.

This then causes them first a better understanding of how to be included and excluded and sympathy for the other kids who are excluded because they know what that pain is like. So in all these ways, these negative childhood experiences are essential. Now, to be clear, bullying, especially if it goes on for multiple days, that's the most horrible thing.

This then causes them first a better understanding of how to be included and excluded and sympathy for the other kids who are excluded because they know what that pain is like. So in all these ways, these negative childhood experiences are essential. Now, to be clear, bullying, especially if it goes on for multiple days, that's the most horrible thing.

And there's no evidence that that's beneficial. But conflict is normal. The kids have to learn how to have conflict and cooperation. They go together. We're going to continue this conversation right after this short break.

And there's no evidence that that's beneficial. But conflict is normal. The kids have to learn how to have conflict and cooperation. They go together. We're going to continue this conversation right after this short break.

I have two sisters.

I have two sisters.

Well, if you describe it as violence, I'm not going to say that, oh, kids need violence. I would never say that. But we're mammals. We love rough and tumble play. When I was a kid, one of the main, you know, like, what do you want to do? Should we play this? Do you want to wrestle? Sure, let's wrestle. And then we would just, like, go at it. And we'd try to pin each other.

Well, if you describe it as violence, I'm not going to say that, oh, kids need violence. I would never say that. But we're mammals. We love rough and tumble play. When I was a kid, one of the main, you know, like, what do you want to do? Should we play this? Do you want to wrestle? Sure, let's wrestle. And then we would just, like, go at it. And we'd try to pin each other.