Jose Najarro

But there's many factors at play.

One other one, for example, is, and you did briefly mention it in your question,

kind of this renewed focus on index investing, which index investing is actually great for many people.

I would argue for most people index investing is the way to go, especially if you're dollar cost averaging.

But index investing also makes the market more susceptible to ups and downs because the market is reacting less

to price discovery from active investors and more with respect to outflows and inflows, which are tied a lot to what retail investors are doing and the emotionality there.

Right.

And so it's kind of as a mechanism index investing can create things that feed on themselves.

So that's also part of it.

Then there's also the reality that more and more, especially in the US, more people are invested in the market as a result of their 401ks and more private pension type systems, which has also increased.

And so the more the proportion of your wealth is in

That's also going to make things even more susceptible to volatility, especially given index investing.

So there's a lot of factors at play, and I think most of them result in the market being

maybe more reactive, both to the positive and the negative than it used to be before.

But I would say it's hard to say whether it's only marginal or significantly because that volatility has always been extreme, right?

When I think about it, it's return on invested capital.

But I start from return on equity and then see whether adjustments are warranted to get me to a more realistic return on invested capital, right?

So I...

I see.

So let's say return on invested capital, actually.