Josh Mankiewicz

I tend to eat McDonald's only – it's, it's always like a last resort because some other place that you wanted wasn't available or it's too late or you're, you're exhausted or, you know, and in my case, like changing planes at DFW, right. Or O'Hare or somewhere. And you know, you're not getting in until really late. That's when the sirens call of the golden arches. Yeah. Yeah.

I tend to eat McDonald's only – it's, it's always like a last resort because some other place that you wanted wasn't available or it's too late or you're, you're exhausted or, you know, and in my case, like changing planes at DFW, right. Or O'Hare or somewhere. And you know, you're not getting in until really late. That's when the sirens call of the golden arches. Yeah. Yeah.

And the corollary to that is if I'm in certain places in the Midwest, it's Culver's. And if I'm in Texas, it's Whataburger because Whataburger is the greatest. Yeah.

And the corollary to that is if I'm in certain places in the Midwest, it's Culver's. And if I'm in Texas, it's Whataburger because Whataburger is the greatest. Yeah.

All right, so one of the interesting things about this is that, you know, her conviction has been thrown out and she gets a new trial because of something that just about never happens, which is ineffective assistance of counsel. We have an audio question about that. Let's listen to that.

All right, so one of the interesting things about this is that, you know, her conviction has been thrown out and she gets a new trial because of something that just about never happens, which is ineffective assistance of counsel. We have an audio question about that. Let's listen to that.

I have covered one case in all my years at Dateline that I can recall in which that happened, in which somebody's conviction was thrown out in a new trial order. I mean, generally, the bar for that is so high.

I have covered one case in all my years at Dateline that I can recall in which that happened, in which somebody's conviction was thrown out in a new trial order. I mean, generally, the bar for that is so high.

Can you automatically, instantly tell when somebody's Canadian?

Can you automatically, instantly tell when somebody's Canadian?

I know. This feels, by the way, like a social media contest that is upcoming. I can see this coming. Since we're talking about ineffective assistance of counsel, let's listen to... Katie's latest attorney, Melissa Swartz, because she has a lot to say about the previous attorneys on this case. So let's listen to that.

I know. This feels, by the way, like a social media contest that is upcoming. I can see this coming. Since we're talking about ineffective assistance of counsel, let's listen to... Katie's latest attorney, Melissa Swartz, because she has a lot to say about the previous attorneys on this case. So let's listen to that.

Well, I mean, I think she I think she clearly did a great job because she she triumphed in a way that most attorneys do not. And those other two guys that came before her. I mean, if you can battle the prosecution to essentially a draw when the when the jury says we can't make a decision, that means you did a pretty good job.

Well, I mean, I think she I think she clearly did a great job because she she triumphed in a way that most attorneys do not. And those other two guys that came before her. I mean, if you can battle the prosecution to essentially a draw when the when the jury says we can't make a decision, that means you did a pretty good job.

So if you're Katie, you're going out into the world knowing that a large number of people think that you literally got away with murder.

So if you're Katie, you're going out into the world knowing that a large number of people think that you literally got away with murder.

That's the interesting thing about this. I don't mean to dismiss Katie's parents. And I have no doubt that they actually do believe in their daughter's innocence. Parents almost never feel any other way. No one wants to admit they raised a monster or a killer. And this is true across the board.

That's the interesting thing about this. I don't mean to dismiss Katie's parents. And I have no doubt that they actually do believe in their daughter's innocence. Parents almost never feel any other way. No one wants to admit they raised a monster or a killer. And this is true across the board.

So that was less surprising to me than the fact that Mary's family was really sort of steadfast and still is.

So that was less surprising to me than the fact that Mary's family was really sort of steadfast and still is.